The suggestion I made (PUSH BACK COMBINE SPAWN BORDER IN CITY 13 TUNNELS) was locked by Joe before it could be discussed. I gave 3 possible solutions, none of which were acknowledged in Joe's message. I'm posting this here because he has not responded to my PM and I would like to know what you guys think.
Here's the suggestion:
Quote:FULL RP Name(s): A: Mpf Ballista B4 Sql Sevin
B: Npu Jurry 04 0007
C: Snp SSgt John F. Kennedy
D: CWU T4 LoR/PC Mr. Dr. Teeth Sex
Discord Username:
A: SEVIN #3641
Steam ID:
A: STEAM_0:0:207655216
What is your suggestion?
A: Push back the combine spawn border in the tunnels on City 13. B: Maybe bend the tunnel so you can't see all the way through. C: Add props on the border so you can see the line from a distance.
How would this benefit the server?
A: You shouldn't be able to shoot into a major combat area from the comfort of spawn protection. Nor should you be able to see into spawn form one of these places. I was almost banned because I was too far away for the sign to render (I was standing on the roof of the market stalls and an OVA was standing just at the border).
Joe's message:
Quote:So, full disclosure here: C13, at least as far as spawn borders go, is fucked.
There are three lanes going directly into combine base, so it's extremely difficult to make functioning spawn borders without making bases take up half the map (and frankly, we're already pretty damn close to that). The rationale for that tunnel having full spawn protection is simple: the sightline blocks literally nothing. It watches no points. No major routes. Nothing. It takes zero effort to avoid that sightline because past it is a wall. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from ignoring it entirely and just walking through the market instead. To be clear, I really,really do not like rules that involve you being able to see an enemy but not shoot them, but in this case this is as good as it gets, and you lose absolutely nothing from just not peeking the tunnel.
As such, the rules aren't changing in this regard. Locked & moved.
He says that the tunnel only provides a sight line of the road in front of it and that it's easy to ignore, but that is simply not true. Because of how far up the sign is, standing behind it and near the left wall gives you a clear angle of all the stalls' roofs and a good bit of the left half of the market. The middle roofs make a great sniping position that is used by a lot by players and it's in clear view from the sign. You can't even approach F's outside stairs or walk around the stall in front of G without helplessly exposing yourself. You really can't ignore it because of how much of an immediate threat it poses.
A: These problems could be mostly solved if the border was pushed back to where it was previously and a "Do not pass" only sign was put in its current place. What's the problem with that?
B: Even if, for whatever reason, that can't be done- why not just edit the map in hammer? All that would need to be done is to make the tunnel enter the market at a slightly different angle.
C: ...Or at the very, very least, props could be put marking where the border is as the sign unloads if you aren't close to it.
Do you think any of these ideas could work? Why won't they? Have a better idea? Even if A and B don't work, I'm sure there's something that we can come up with to fix this or at the very least improve it.
A: Pushing back the border would allow rebels to traverse and peek into the Combine courtyards, something that would be problematic in-of-itself.
B: Not possible, hammer editing a map for 1 portion of it, especially when there are a multitude of other problems, would not only be useless, but cause issues where people would be like "you fixed this, fix this as well!" Keep in mind a new map is also set to release sometime soon which might fix all of the cancerous parts of City 13.
C: I don't know what you mean by this. I assume it's putting props there, but no idea. You gotta remember this tunnel is also where APCs frequently pass through, so props being placed here would more than likely make traversing into market cancerous.
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love me some lore former hgm, npu dvl (sentry), lvet co
(22 Jan 22 at 2:23pm)Bad Luck Wrote: Long corridor with no escape from which you could get shot from sounds like a plague of spawn camping.
There's a sign there that prevents that from happening, and most Snipers are already aware not to shoot through there (I havent had it happen to me, not consistently at least, nor have I heard any recurring reports float around about it).
Signature:
love me some lore former hgm, npu dvl (sentry), lvet co
Neutral
As I said before with Pripyat the older version looked better. In the previous form of the map, you could have access to the roofs which could be climbed onto with the pipes like ladders. There were also a bit more vents in the ground reminding the playerbase that the tunnels exist. Bridges were everywhere on the roofs that gave more options for the combine. With the combination of the roofs and tunnels there would be more options to go through instead of Rebels "spawncamping" one spot.
(22 Jan 22 at 2:19pm)Kenny McCormick Wrote: A: Pushing back the border would allow rebels to traverse and peek into the Combine courtyards, something that would be problematic in-of-itself.
B: Not possible, hammer editing a map for 1 portion of it, especially when there are a multitude of other problems, would not only be useless, but cause issues where people would be like "you fixed this, fix this as well!" Keep in mind a new map is also set to release sometime soon which might fix all of the cancerous parts of City 13.
C: I don't know what you mean by this. I assume it's putting props there, but no idea. You gotta remember this tunnel is also where APCs frequently pass through, so props being placed here would more than likely make traversing into market cancerous.
For A: Like I said, a "Do not pass" only sign would be placed where the current border is and the "do not shoot pass" sign would be pushed back to where it was previously (in line with the short combine barricade props). This system will allow rebels to defend themselves if shot from a short distance within the tunnel, but not enter more than a few meters.
Alternatively, and what I prefer, a force field could be placed were the barricades are and a "do not pass" only sign would replace the current sign. The force field would allow players and vehicles to pass through but stop bullets.
For B: Major edits to city 13 have been made before. Edits much more complicated than this. I simply ask for a hallway to be given a bend.
Not fixing a problem because people might ask you to fix other problems is absurd and lazy.
A new map won't fix city 13. At best it might replace it but even this is not favorable. City 13 is a very fun map. It is my understanding that we want as many great maps in the rotation as possible. Is it not harder to develop an entire new map than to fix what we have now?
For C: I'm asking that, at the very minimum, that one combine_barricade_short02a be placed on the sidewalk, in line with the sign, on both sides, exactly how the barricades are further back.
Before that General Disclaimer;
Suggestion A is a mediocre idea. The entire point of the sign that states "do not shoot" is that it directly discourages spawncamping by forcing anti-spawncamp measures. Namely, it lets the team that would be getting spawncamped shoot out, naturally repelling enemies who deign to get too close. In my mind, there's no reason for Rebels to be close enough to Combine spawn to where they can be picked off from that sightline via normal weapons, and an incredibly easy solution otherwise is to just not peak it.
Suggestion B:
(22 Jan 22 at 4:27pm)Sevin Wrote: For B: Major edits to city 13 have been made before. Edits much more complicated than this. I simply ask for a hallway to be given a bend.
That is patently false. The only map that has received significant changes as part of player feedback in anywhere even close to recent memory has been Mainstreet, with the huge barricades near Point F. C13R has received no actual changes to the map. The barricades coming from Combine spawn are permaprops.
(22 Jan 22 at 11:04pm)[DEFN] Aithead Wrote: Suggestion A is a mediocre idea. The entire point of the sign that states "do not shoot" is that it directly discourages spawncamping by forcing anti-spawncamp measures. Namely, it lets the team that would be getting spawncamped shoot out, naturally repelling enemies who deign to get too close. In my mind, there's no reason for Rebels to be close enough to Combine spawn to where they can be picked off from that sightline via normal weapons, and an incredibly easy solution otherwise is to just not peak it.
Thats how it should work, and how it doses in other places, but it falls apart when you consider just how close rebels are in fact supposed to be. The border is just too close to the market. Because of how far in the tunnel the border is, standing just behind it gives you a shooting position, that is in effective range for automatic rifles, on a large portion of the market; mainly the road and area in front it, and roofs of the middle market stalls- a place that rebels frequent to shoot into H. While it is true, Rebels can avoid these places, but you're asking them to restrict themselves from many advantageous positions and their overall movement. Pushing the border back would decrease what is visible from the sign to only the road in front of the tunnel and reduce the effectiveness of most weapons due to the extended range.
The tunnel would be not much different than the road leading from point I into rebel base. There, combine camping never is much of an issue. With the tunnel, I'd wager that camping would be even less of a problem as the rebels would have much less cover and have to deal with many more directions for combined to push from.
Even if you still think Rebels camping it will be a problem, there is a simple fix. Have the sign say, "Do not camp near here," underneath.
(22 Jan 22 at 11:04pm)[DEFN] Aithead Wrote: That is patently false. The only map that has received significant changes as part of player feedback in anywhere even close to recent memory has been Mainstreet, with the huge barricades near Point F. C13R has received no actual changes to the map. The barricades coming from Combine spawn are permaprops.
The place where point C is now used to be a completely open, downward sloping road that gave a long sight line directly into rebel base. The rooms with the garage doors were added to break that siteline.
Do we at least agree that suggestion C would be helpful and non-problematic?
Here's the suggestion:
Joe's message:
He says that the tunnel only provides a sight line of the road in front of it and that it's easy to ignore, but that is simply not true. Because of how far up the sign is, standing behind it and near the left wall gives you a clear angle of all the stalls' roofs and a good bit of the left half of the market. The middle roofs make a great sniping position that is used by a lot by players and it's in clear view from the sign. You can't even approach F's outside stairs or walk around the stall in front of G without helplessly exposing yourself. You really can't ignore it because of how much of an immediate threat it poses.
A: These problems could be mostly solved if the border was pushed back to where it was previously and a "Do not pass" only sign was put in its current place. What's the problem with that?
B: Even if, for whatever reason, that can't be done- why not just edit the map in hammer? All that would need to be done is to make the tunnel enter the market at a slightly different angle.
C: ...Or at the very, very least, props could be put marking where the border is as the sign unloads if you aren't close to it.
Do you think any of these ideas could work? Why won't they? Have a better idea?
Even if A and B don't work, I'm sure there's something that we can come up with to fix this or at the very least improve it.
B: Not possible, hammer editing a map for 1 portion of it, especially when there are a multitude of other problems, would not only be useless, but cause issues where people would be like "you fixed this, fix this as well!" Keep in mind a new map is also set to release sometime soon which might fix all of the cancerous parts of City 13.
C: I don't know what you mean by this. I assume it's putting props there, but no idea. You gotta remember this tunnel is also where APCs frequently pass through, so props being placed here would more than likely make traversing into market cancerous.
former hgm, npu dvl (sentry), lvet co
There's a sign there that prevents that from happening, and most Snipers are already aware not to shoot through there (I havent had it happen to me, not consistently at least, nor have I heard any recurring reports float around about it).
former hgm, npu dvl (sentry), lvet co
As I said before with Pripyat the older version looked better. In the previous form of the map, you could have access to the roofs which could be climbed onto with the pipes like ladders. There were also a bit more vents in the ground reminding the playerbase that the tunnels exist. Bridges were everywhere on the roofs that gave more options for the combine. With the combination of the roofs and tunnels there would be more options to go through instead of Rebels "spawncamping" one spot.
For A: Like I said, a "Do not pass" only sign would be placed where the current border is and the "do not shoot pass" sign would be pushed back to where it was previously (in line with the short combine barricade props). This system will allow rebels to defend themselves if shot from a short distance within the tunnel, but not enter more than a few meters.
Alternatively, and what I prefer, a force field could be placed were the barricades are and a "do not pass" only sign would replace the current sign. The force field would allow players and vehicles to pass through but stop bullets.
For B: Major edits to city 13 have been made before. Edits much more complicated than this. I simply ask for a hallway to be given a bend.
Not fixing a problem because people might ask you to fix other problems is absurd and lazy.
A new map won't fix city 13. At best it might replace it but even this is not favorable. City 13 is a very fun map. It is my understanding that we want as many great maps in the rotation as possible. Is it not harder to develop an entire new map than to fix what we have now?
For C: I'm asking that, at the very minimum, that one combine_barricade_short02a be placed on the sidewalk, in line with the sign, on both sides, exactly how the barricades are further back.
Before that General Disclaimer;
Suggestion A is a mediocre idea. The entire point of the sign that states "do not shoot" is that it directly discourages spawncamping by forcing anti-spawncamp measures. Namely, it lets the team that would be getting spawncamped shoot out, naturally repelling enemies who deign to get too close. In my mind, there's no reason for Rebels to be close enough to Combine spawn to where they can be picked off from that sightline via normal weapons, and an incredibly easy solution otherwise is to just not peak it.
Suggestion B:
That is patently false. The only map that has received significant changes as part of player feedback in anywhere even close to recent memory has been Mainstreet, with the huge barricades near Point F. C13R has received no actual changes to the map. The barricades coming from Combine spawn are permaprops.
Ancient GRID CmD, prior SU Major/GB COL.
Credit to SEVIN.
Thats how it should work, and how it doses in other places, but it falls apart when you consider just how close rebels are in fact supposed to be. The border is just too close to the market. Because of how far in the tunnel the border is, standing just behind it gives you a shooting position, that is in effective range for automatic rifles, on a large portion of the market; mainly the road and area in front it, and roofs of the middle market stalls- a place that rebels frequent to shoot into H. While it is true, Rebels can avoid these places, but you're asking them to restrict themselves from many advantageous positions and their overall movement. Pushing the border back would decrease what is visible from the sign to only the road in front of the tunnel and reduce the effectiveness of most weapons due to the extended range.
The tunnel would be not much different than the road leading from point I into rebel base. There, combine camping never is much of an issue. With the tunnel, I'd wager that camping would be even less of a problem as the rebels would have much less cover and have to deal with many more directions for combined to push from.
Even if you still think Rebels camping it will be a problem, there is a simple fix. Have the sign say, "Do not camp near here," underneath.
The place where point C is now used to be a completely open, downward sloping road that gave a long sight line directly into rebel base. The rooms with the garage doors were added to break that siteline.
Do we at least agree that suggestion C would be helpful and non-problematic?