So, what's the deal with these updates?


Cotton eye joe  Member 22 Nov 24 at 10:55pm Edited
#1
So, it's that time of the year where I finally make a forum post, so fuck it Ima gives it a go.
Keep in mind I am a rebel main, but If there is any major issues with rebels id still point it out. I want balance not one sided fights.
First and important topic is the grapple. Mobility in CVR Seems to play a pretty important role. If you notice wit things such as FOBS The reason, they're so important as it brings you close to the fight so you can get right back in. Grapple hooks...Do a lot. Even if a lot of people make the claims it really isn't important, It. REALLY IS. I don't think it should have been added. Even if it was in the hands of say LA or Lamda veteran. It breaks a pretty important role for playing which is mobility. A cross with a grapple can cross half the freakin map 100% faster than any class with speed buffs. And when someone gets really good at it, they become spiderman, this isn't fun to play against. Climb swep is already in the game, And has been used by crosses to treverse parts of the map. We have something for movement and climbing Use it. Even if it was on my teams' hands id still makes the recommendation to remove it because it's really, fucking dumb. This isn't Fortnite, why was this a necessary addition?
LMGS
Surprisingly I've noticed this was a problem for a while. And while before it wasn't as problematic because you could just destroy the shield and kill the shield. But now it needs to be addressed more than ever with shields being harder to destroy. An LMG Is a support weapon, why has it become an automatic sniper rifle. I don't know if it's like this for both sides, but if it is the same for rebels as it is for combine then I'm sure combine players likely feel the same way. A sniper at close to max range distance can get hit by an LMG, Thats fucking insanity. Granted, again this wouldn't be an issue if the shields were not buffed. But now that they are, Either the damage or the range needs to be brought into question
Tank unions
Have you ever wanted to know what it feels like to fight a faster, Thiner hitboxed EOW? Well now you can! With the new update allowing union to stack so much armor that if you manage to kill one because of their five second respawn timer they will be immediately back to finish you off. Why was this done? I don't think there was ever a point where union players were saying they needed more armor, they seemed pretty balanced basically on par with a rebel fighter. Why give them the ability to become EOWS?
Snipers
I have no clue where and when this happened, but it's got to be discussed. What in the shit is wrong with the SVD. I get it, Semi-automatic sniper sounds pretty good, maybe too good...But I don't know if making it, so it takes five shots to kill something is the way to go, With insane recoil. Damage that is maybe the equivalent of throwing a paper airplane at a full equipped soldier's head. The argument * Get better* Doesn't matter if the time it takes to kill something is so high that they can run, eat an entire turkey and then get in cover and there probably still going to be at only half HP once they make it behind cover. I get it sentinel doesn't like one shot weapons, and it makes sense, Breaks flow sometimes...So why can a cross one shot with his rifle now? Same with RANGERS. Id understands if both sides were suffering the same fate, But realistically. They aren't. And before you mention headshot multipliers, Its like a three shot on a full armored target. And handling the recoil enough to land all three is probably not in the question.

Why not just have overall balance? It feels like the balance swings one or the other. And that's not good. If you want people to play the game, they need to actually have fun. This isn't a call from some shitcan rebel cause " Cumbean too gud please nerf." It's that rules are applied to one side and not for the other. And when it's pointed out it swings in the opposite direction. A major question that should be asked when adding weapons, Nerfs/Buffs. Should be " Who's asking for this?" Did shields need a major buff? Or where they just fine before. What about unions? Did they desperately say they were getting cut up and unable to fight against rebel forces. These updates feel damn near soulless in their addition. Like you're taking the public opinion out of the server I understand if the SVD Was way too powerful and needed to be nerfed, but as someone who sat and used the HDR And in the short time I was a rebel sniper collected 250 total kills on it And now cant even reach 10 on the SVD. It really shows a lack of care.

TLDR: This game needs to be balanced for both sides, don't screw one side and buff the other. Balance both. Ask the community what the major issues are. Don't just randomly add things without taking gameplay into consideration. Cause it will be felt by everyone. It isn't fun to crush the enemy team nonstop for 30 minutes with little resistance. It isnt fun to play as the team getting completely demolished.
[DEFN] Sentinel  President 22 Nov 24 at 11:09pm
#2
There's a whole lot to unpack here. Now if I were just speaking matter-of-fact here, I could say "well a lot of what you said is just outright wrong".
But that misses the point, if you feel a certain way, some stat on a piece of paper probably wouldn't change that- and at the very least, it doesn't excuse the gaps in communication on my part.

Let me know how you'd like me to approach my response to this
Cotton eye joe  Member 22 Nov 24 at 11:15pm Edited
#3
Well...Its kinda self explanatory man. I asked some questions to prompt a response. But ill list it.
Why was the grapple added when a form of upwards mobility was already in the game.
What prompted the shield buff.
What prompted the union buff.
What prompted the SVD Extreme nerf.
My main conversation I want to have is specifically about balance. The server slowly feels like balance is being thrown up in the air, and caught by whoever's turn it is to be completely broken. Why not just level both sides. Find a few people from both sides to talk about these things. Representees of both sides combine and rebels to find stable middle ground.
[DEFN] Sentinel  President 22 Nov 24 at 11:41pm Edited
#4
Ill address that last point first since its the easiest to do:

I already have representatives from both sides. The system we have is very robust, and the sample size is large.
What should be said is that balance is not two dimensional. There's also the the dynamic of finding a balance between newer and older players.
There's also the dynamic of having fast enough TTK to appease to an audience that derives its entertainment from the killing aspect, while not being SO fast as to turn off people who derive entertainment from teamwork.

All of this is to say that try as I might, perspectives on matters are unique to each individual person:
I have representatives from both sides who think that balance should be thrown out the window in favor of pure fun and interesting experiences.
Representatives who want all class variety to be gone in favor of completely consistent engagements against everybody.
Representatives who care only about the specific class they came from even when they're in charge of multiple classes.
Representatives who think that every class except theirs should be nerfed.
Representatives that think every other class should be buffed to be brought up to their class' specific level.

If you want an accurate answer as to why many balance decisions seem disjointed and sporadic, that's because the opinions of people in general are disjointed and sporadic.
Human beings are not keen on logical thinking when entertainment and fun is thrown into the mix, they'd much rather short term fun over rational decisions.

This will definitely sound bad when taken out of context, as I'm seemingly blaming the players on giving honest opinions- when my ENTIRE JOB is to create an aggregate of opinions, and find compromises.
But I'll say this- I don't know how long you've been around for, but things used to be a lot worse. There were times were no consulting was done, and times where exact suggestions from every single player were implemented, even when conflicting. A lame cop-out excuse, I know; but things are slowly improving, and will continue to do so.

Something to consider is that as much as I'd like to just do something because I know it's the correct decision, I have to curry favor from individual COs, specific divisions, interest groups, and so on to AGREE to a change- potentially in exchange for something else.

If I don't, people CK, they encourage others not to play, a whole host of other shitty behaviors. This may sound like I'm talking down about officers and other groups, but let me state clearly that I think by-and-large, everyone in power currently are good people and decent at their jobs. But I can't constantly discard objections to changes, at risk of what they may do when not listened to for long enough.

My weakness is that I desire feedback and consensus, the exact things you ask for- to the point that others treat it as a right and will burn shit down if they aren't compensated for changes they don't like (even when the changes are objectively correct).
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Cotton eye joe  Member 22 Nov 24 at 11:53pm
#5
Ima use a specific example just to get the point im trying to make across.
The grapple.
I understand that this was approved by multiple people, It went through the wringer to get approved.
...But its only used by combine. And ive heard nothing but people complain about this new addition. It breaks gameplay flow entirely. Who asked for this to be added. * Not asking for names* I mean literally why was it added. Its an add nothing to the game.
NightlyMoon160  Member 23 Nov 24 at 1:35am
#6
I personally believe it is to create a niche in a class/job.
I may be biased, since I am a combine main.
Sentinel has been actively trying to make each job more niche and more individualized instead of the cookie cutter job that is pasted for the otherside for "balance".
The same can be said for MP heavy, or even HECU. But they are well balanced and despite how they change the dynamic of fights. They are still fun but challenging to fight against.

But that is my view on the grapple change.
I welcome change in a *meaningful* way.
qwuossoint  Member 23 Nov 24 at 2:54am Edited
#7
The first thing I'd like to say is that a lot of this clearly comes out of frustration, and I'm unsure of how to properly engage with it because of that. Bear in mind as I try to somewhat break my stance down into more logical reasoning.

Grappling

Certainly. I don't agree with some of the wording used, but the way grappling works gives CROSS effectively infinite horizontal mobility. This is of course, considering that every CROSS and their mother is running an SMG in their back pocket, and can always just disengage from fights to stand far away and snipe people, makes me curious as to what CROSS's kit is supposed to be. It has thermal vision, insane mobility from a grappling hook, but also a sniper? I always considered CSWEP as a way to find optimal sniping positions that RANGERs cannot access and make use of a wider range of flanks, but the grappling hook just feels like compensation for the speed difference between themself and Scav. On top of the issue of flow of gameplay, people flying across your screen, and the exclusivity, would be how obvious it is. For what I previously considered a sniping-scout hybrid that could make necessary flanks or have supreme control over their positioning with their CSWEP is now the dreadful noise of a TF2 grappling hook as a man swings around the corner, pulls out his SMG, and beams you. Regardless of whether or not you win, its frustrating and takes away from the more grounded combat.

Where I cannot agree is that it should be completely axed from the game. As I've expressed previously, if the noise factor is toned down a bit, I see no issue with it replacing the CSWEP on classes such as LA/EOWA, who I think actually quite deserve the massively increased mobility. Especially considering the nature of handpick deployment rules and the fact that they are more uncommon than CROSS are, I see no issue with them having it.

"Tank Unions"

I hate the phrase, but this chalks up to a skill difference (otherwise known as "Skill Issue"). UNION/RF have always been much more valuable at higher levels because of their ability to equip the heaviest armor in the game. There have been times were fighting them was extremely miserable because of TTK and certain weapon balancing factors, but this isn't one of those times, and I do not see level 100+ UNION's armor stacking on the daily. Complaining about the respawn timer is eh - I can see the issue, but the issue is also quelled 95% of the time by properly assaulting the FOB/point that they're spawning on. Regardless, the respawn timer doesn't contribute to your comparison as a "smaller EOW", and they definitely are not as tanky. While you may not agree, the "niche" of UNION/RF is to take full advantage of the crafting system in order to draw their major upsides from it. Their kit is already serviceable for a newer player, while being flexible enough to being able to be efficiently used as an infantry class by server veterans.

Snipers

Personally, I think Sentinel has done quite well with the HDR/AX-50. A lot of the times when I die its either because of the elephant in the room below this paragraph, because I'm too close to my target, or my aim is just bad. I've had situations where I've gone on long killstreaks and feel quite good about them because I know that in order to achieve them, I had to position myself correctly and land consistent headshots in order to secure those kills, and never felt like it was anything other than skill that dragged me down. So why do I agree with your stance somewhat? Because of your major complaint of the Dragunov. This thing used to be a two-tap-terror, a being of pure satanic origin, where you were dead if a LVET so much as caught a glimpse of you. Currently? It feels like a nerf gun. Now I haven't played LVET Sniper in its current state (Because I can't) but I honestly think that as long as the damage is tweaked a little bit to account for some damage thresholds, it'd be absolutely fine. Armor is difficult to account for, and comparing stats is an argument in pretty bad faith (Especially considering Sentinel JUST establishing that minor tweaks in stats cannot save balancing - which is definitely true), but I find myself consistently getting 1-2 tap head kills with the .357, a gun which has a bit higher damage than the Dragunov (117 vs. 127), so I'm sure we can reach a pretty sweet spot where the Dragunov can kill in 2 heads, maybe 1 head 2 body on a lot of targets? This is where I honestly cannot have much say in terms of an opinion considering my lack of play with the Dragunov for any extended period of time.

The SPR is always going to be a pain in the ass to balance around. For this, I'm going to save any drawn out balancing theories and just give it straight: CSWEP with good sniper good, Grappling hook with good sniper bad. CROSS's current philosophy makes the sniper it has weird, and it's always going to feel like an anomaly to me.

LMG's (Shields?)

The way you describe this section makes it clear you are talking about SHIELD. Or just, the shield itself. I could not agree less. SHIELD is an issue, but the shield did not make it one. LMG's are an issue, having a shield LMG class did not make it one. The reason why snipers are so oppressed by LMG's currently boils down to automatics killing them fairly often in general. The thing about many LMG's is that because of their mag size, its much easier to continuously puke out bullets until you kill a sniper via death by a thousand cuts. This is not exclusive to the FiNN, even on classes with no shield, that I used to think were quite well designed - MP HVY's M91 having a very high amount of kick to encourage kicking back and using the bipod to defend points - can still act as a "automatic sniper rifle" with attachment configurations. Even further increased mag sizes, barrels that heavily influence effective range, long range damage boosting attachments, etc. can all be attributed to as reasons to why long range classes are currently being outgunned. This is a very slippery slope for balancing, as many people need to be able to have the weapon range so that they may pinprick snipers in order to prevent them from staying on a mountain and only being contested by other sniper classes, and raises issues in certain long-range combat scenarios.

Shield classes received a buff to their shield HP, but you treat it as an overall buff. The regen speed has been significantly slowed, and shooting the tip of the shield users head or their feet is now much more consistent. If they crouch, their head shows more, and they're less mobile, making it easier to focus fire. I do think that the HP is a bit much, but at the same time, they have numerous weaknesses that can be exploited to kill shield classes in record time - I'm talking 3-4 shots. Any time a shield user sprints, jumps, reloads, etc, they are risking themselves doing so since their shield will no longer cover a majority of their body. The fact the shield hitbox is based on its actual position is nothing but a buff to consistency. If a shield user is consistently blocking your sightline on him, he is using his kit effectively, and it is coordination or your ability to prioritize his weak points that is making it harder to kill them, since the issue of how inconsistently its blocked due to how the previous system worked is no longer an issue.


Overall

CvR will always be in a tricky, fragile state of balancing, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it outright horrible. A lot of stuff has been added and removed or changed around experimentally, and I haven't seen it stick all too often. From what I understand, Sentinel subscribes to the idea of having classes not necessarily be equalized - or even all that close to being similar - across sides, considering the tweaks to MP HVY, EOW, HECU, etc. The grappling hook was an experiment to give CROSS a new tool to give it a niche and make it stand out as CROSS, and not "the combine light sniper", and is currently a little poorly implemented. It's not about "Who asked for this?" because if Sentinel added what the public asked for even 70% of the time, the server would kind of REALLY suck, so regardless of if its a minor weapon change or major class change, there is always a minefield that is being stepped on, where certain people will quit the game or be upset no matter what, and sometimes the majority opinion is still a pretty shit one. Best I usually find you can do is to give stuff a moment to settle into the gameplay loop and then give detailed reports on potential balancing issues and solutions and see where opinions lie and what action is taken regarding it.

Edit: Just read the newest dev log which tweaked the damages and the shield HPs, along with the more less commonly addressed issue of shotguns place in balancing. Wahoo- just wish I hadn't wrote all of this before I knew that.

I also did kind of cover this at a very surface level. As Sentinel says, theres a ton of extra things to consider regarding player skill, how it affects balancing, overall TTK, how that fucks with how snipers/shotguns can be balanced, etc.

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Lunar Frost  VIP 23 Nov 24 at 4:23pm
#8
i can only say that the reason why the grapple replaces the climb swep is because the climb swep is heavily tickrate dependent, and before the server used to run a sub 20 tickrate, meaning that you would have instances of getting killed as you retreat to cover more often than today, that isnt really issue today due to many perfomance update and even doubling the tickrate to be somewhat better

Climbswep takes some time to learn for sure, and all of its nuances of climbing and whatnot, however the grapple takes skill to master and know how can you use to its full potential.

but yeah that is what i have to say about that lemme cover the other ones quickly:

Tank Union: i can say the same for RF except they have a gun that does more damage, so skill issue really

Snipers and LMG's: would you rather have a sniper meta or LMG meta? idk pick your poison here cuz both are aids in their own terms but the way they are fine for the most part, the shield rebalance

Balancing: its has always been a mess to balance anything in this server because they tried to please everyone at the same, which leads to pleasing no one, sentinel said this in community meetings before.

But yeah that is about it, i have nothing else to say on this matter, but 50% boils down to skill issue in my brutal opinion
IgnisNuts  Member 24 Nov 24 at 2:43am
#9
Imo the newer updates for more tools are more fun. I don't play CvR too often, but the recent times I have were fun mostly because it was put in that way.
I've always liked games where it tries to make every class/hero powerful in their own way, so seeing these were real refreshing compared to the constant want for everything to be equal.
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