i forgot the format and cant find it, so there you go^
I wrote this at 2am with a desire to ask a question and propose a solution, civilly. I know I didn't do a very good job of keeping it wholesome and polite, but despite how I worded it, I am not angry or upset, just curious, confused, and passionate about the health and longevity of CvR. I'm not the best at structuring my thoughts into words
What happened to the cuffs for RIOT and SENTRY? I think they should get their cuffs back because they are part of NPU.
In the distant past, I remember they had the cuffs so they can do arrests on potential SU's and misbehaving Combine. How can someone who's part of a Military Police class hope to enforce the rules, when he only has weapons, and his options are limited to "USE GUN"? It's not very professional to go brainblasting ONION 09's for goofing off a bit too much, and it degrades the image of a just and fair NPU. If you only have a hammer, every problem becomes a nail, even if you know that a wrench might be better. (Yes, you can argue that the alleged Combine criminal should be handed to a JURY or a CO, but that won't always be an option when it's entirely up to luck if you have a JURY or relevant CO online or not. You could also argue to just screenshot the perpetrator while they're performing the crime, but that's not very "hands-on," and does nothing to stop the perpetrator in the moment, and kinda makes NPU look like they don't care, which in turn makes people less respecting of NPU, which leads to more people misbehaving when they see that the enforcers don't do anything when JURY is offline)
For Rebels, all of the Military Police classes (MP, MP HVY) all have cuffs: MP have it for capturing AND arresting, MP HVY have it just for arresting (right? im combine main idk for sure, but i know the field manual still says MP HVY get cuffs.) While I support the idea of having less "mirror-matches" between the Combine and Rebel faction in terms of class design, I think there are a few hard limits that need to be drawn for the sake of both factions having a reasonable, preferably mostly similar access to a specific kind of class to fill a role (like both factions need to have a vehicle job of roughly equal ability to fill the role of armor and air support, both factions need to have a builder class of roughly equal ability to fulfill the role of creating strongpoints, etc. For example, there shouldn't be 2 builders and 3 half-builder-half-combat classes for Combine while Rebels only get 1 dedicated builder, you get the idea. You could argue that Techies vs KILO/FOXTROT is a case of too much asymmetry, which is true, but it's kinda sorta balanced when Combine get drones.) In this case, I feel that it is too restrictive for Combine side to only have 1/3rd of their Military Police division actually be able to fulfill the role of a rule-enforcer and internal policer, compared to Rebels, who have their entire Military Police division able to do internal arrests.
(failed to stay civil, neutral-sided and on-topic here, i tried)
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Furthermore, Stealth classes should ideally have a high risk of being captured as a tradeoff for having the ability to stealth and infiltrate in the first place. Combine need more coverage regarding "policing the team" due to SU's entire job being to disguise as Combine and cause trouble, and the only way to properly convict them of being an SU without seeing them perform a crime in front of you, is to question or interrogate them (which goes back to the point of, how can you interrogate properly if they can just run away or shoot you?) whereas Rebels need to simply SEE the MACE to know he's a clear and immediate threat. (Yes, I know, MACE is invisible, but at least when he appears, you know he's hostile. With SU, you never know he's an enemy until you've already been shot, unless you're questioning every Combine unit you pass, which is a funny joke, or keeping an eye on every ally at all times to make sure they don't flick-shot headshot you, which is also a funny joke.) MACEs also run the risk of having their footsteps heard if they're in an area Combine don't normally go (ie. around or inside Rebel base, or just in the desolate areas of the battlefield) while SU's can't be detected AT ALL without stopping them and making them stay still for questioning (or using exterior clues like their pfp, the sound of their voice, or their overall behavior and personality, which is bannable.) As it currently stands, Rebels have 2 classes equipped with the gear and privileges necessary to capture/interrogate MACE, whereas Combine currently only have ONE (1) class equipped with the gear necessary to capture/interrogate SU. All while SU have much more versatility and flexibility in terms of how they can damage the Combine's gameplan, strategy, organization, and team trust and coordination over longterm, due to the nature of how many options TURNING INTO THE ENEMY gives you. Meanwhile MACE's invisibility only really lets you pick off specific targets for a quick few kills before having to pull back and reassess the situation, and only strengthens the bond in your allies as you have to rely on your fellow fighters to cover each other's backs. (I will admit, MACE has more utility in terms of spying and stealing vehicles, but I would strongly argue SU triggers a stronger negative response overall, because it feels more like a teamkill, and they have more ability to sway the Combine's overall status by injecting bad ideas into the chain of command and generally being a minge to get COs to stop and help them, and by extension getting the COs to stop commanding the faction. All of this to say, ALL of NPU needs to be able to police properly, not just JURY and not just COs)
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I don't know why the cuffs were removed in the first place, but if they were removed for a good reason (which i cant think of a single good reason, but hey, i dont have years of game design experience) perhaps there could be a compromise and only RIOT/SENTRY NCO+ get to have cuffs re-added.
Without cuffs and the ability to arrest Combine and SU's, it feels like RIOT and SENTRY are a needless, "private base-defense goon-squad" bloat on NPU whose only purpose is to fight, and should be repurposed into new OTA or have their special gear split up over the subdivisions (which no one wants, but currently, the only thing they have the ability to do is shoot gun, which is more the job of OTA and MPF.)
That's most of my thoughts, I have more but can't remember them all, might edit later or add an extra comment. I know it doesn't look like it, but I do not write in hate, despite how it kinda turned into a rant about SU's toward the end, I just want to have a civil conversation. I very much appreciate the work the devs and staff put in, despite some changes not always being in the right direction, and I want both factions to stop ripping into each other over petty nonsense (we're all guilty of it, myself included, just look at the heavily biased opinionated SU paragraph). But like I said earlier, all of this is to say that ALL of NPU needs cuffs in order to police properly. Only leaving JURY and the occasional CO responsible for all arrests just isn't feasible, especially with how popular RIOT and SENTRY are right now.
TLDR: RIOT/SHIELD deserve to have cuffs, all of MP has cuffs so why doesn't all of NPU have cuffs? Without them, RIOT and SHIELD are just frontline combat classes and should be put in OTA since they can't do internal arrests. You need cuffs to properly combat SU disguises, MACE only truly requires a gun to be fought effectively (controversial, i know, but i stand by it. im combine main, so take that into account, but i do play rebs often)
I don't know how to edit, so I'm putting this here.
Towards the bottom of the SU paragraph where it says "and only strengthens the bond in your allies as you have to rely on your fellow fighters to cover each other's backs," I mean that fighting MACE as Rebels will tend to build your trust in your allies, since you have to rely on each other to fight him. Fighting SU as Combine tends to erode your trust in your allies, and slowly over the course of the map will cause Combine to break up, spread out and be less coordinated (in my experience.) This is because anyone you meet on the field or anyone in your squad could be an SU, and you have to take your attention away from watching out for hostiles and instead focus on determining if this guy is actually regrouping with you or if he's about to blow your brains out.
I know I keep going off topic, but it all ties into how RIOT/SHIELD need cuffs to do their job.
I also realize way too late that I put SHIELD instead of SENTRY on a few of those... kms
Im not going to read all of that, but I'll have to break your heart in that NPU (During DvL Dama - PC Dama) removed their cuffs because overall they (Him and guessing majority of NPU Command at at the time) didn't want cuffing to be apart of Riot and Sentry's duties. So while you think they deserve cuffs, they personally requested it to be removed.
dont listen to these brainwashed sheep, big DEFN has it out for you, they specifically removed cuffs from Sentry and Riot to inconvenience you like the rothschildren do to me on the daily!!
alright here's the situation:
1. Riot and Sentry would have to both be trained on how to handle detainees and would both require a TR phase to gauge responsibility with the cuffs.
2. SU hunting was not RIOT/SENTRY's job even when they had the cuffs, that was entirely JURY's domain, the whole section you wrote on catching SU is basically null and void because they weren't allowed to in the first place.
3. there are generally more CO's on at one time than NPU during the course of the entire day, trading the RIOT/SENTRY cuffs to CO jobs (who are already familiar with dealing in matters that require demotions) was just a better choice all around as there are more of them and they are already held to this higher standard without requiring much training.
4. this is not a new situation for NPU, RIOT and SENTRY have had better numbers and retention while NOT having cuffs.
5. as a JURY CO I have not gotten any reports or seen any reports in my CO comms about a lack of classes with cuffs leading to a major incident that staff couldn't handle. most of the incidents I hear about are usually MRDM or RDM bans/warns that don't warrant having extra manpower in the cuffing department.
6. I'm not going to speak about MP very much but I'm like 90% sure MP HVY hasn't had cuffs in years, I'm pretty sure they got rid of them for a Utility (like the Flieger Faust and gas grenades for example.). that might need to be updated in the manual if it still says they have them.
7. lastly anything to do with "capturing" the other faction is fluff, it's not an essential part of the gameplay loop and is mostly for "RP" purposes, I won't be taking any points about those seriously.
(24 Nov 24 at 7:23pm)Schizm Wrote: alright here's the situation:
1. Riot and Sentry would have to both be trained on how to handle detainees and would both require a TR phase to gauge responsibility with the cuffs.
2. SU hunting was not RIOT/SENTRY's job even when they had the cuffs, that was entirely JURY's domain, the whole section you wrote on catching SU is basically null and void because they weren't allowed to in the first place.
3. there are generally more CO's on at one time than NPU during the course of the entire day, trading the RIOT/SENTRY cuffs to CO jobs (who are already familiar with dealing in matters that require demotions) was just a better choice all around as there are more of them and they are already held to this higher standard without requiring much training.
4. this is not a new situation for NPU, RIOT and SENTRY have had better numbers and retention while NOT having cuffs.
5. as a JURY CO I have not gotten any reports or seen any reports in my CO comms about a lack of classes with cuffs leading to a major incident that staff couldn't handle. most of the incidents I hear about are usually MRDM or RDM bans/warns that don't warrant having extra manpower in the cuffing department.
6. I'm not going to speak about MP very much but I'm like 90% sure MP HVY hasn't had cuffs in years, I'm pretty sure they got rid of them for a Utility (like the Flieger Faust and gas grenades for example.). that might need to be updated in the manual if it still says they have them.
7. lastly anything to do with "capturing" the other faction is fluff, it's not an essential part of the gameplay loop and is mostly for "RP" purposes, I won't be taking any points about those seriously.
so yeah there is my two cents
-NPU JURY OFC-I Faktor
MP HVY Does in fact have their cuffs. They're mainly used for maintaining order in base (arresting bad rebels), but can be used to capture CROSS/MACE discovered inside of base, and they are allowed to handle interrogations. (The latter is a more recent addition; even I was surprised when they were allowed this)
However, they stem from a class which primary purpose is capturing and interrogating, and requires a bit of playtime past TR phase in order to gain said class, so it's pretty clear as to why they're entrusted with cuffs. Overall I agree with what you've said though: If someone is being so bad they need to be cuffed, CO's have that under control. If they aren't being detained, then there's always contacting people via discord/staff chat. If a SU is in base, shoot him lmao. I'll drop a more detailed breakdown on the original post sometime later.
EDIT: MP HVY CANNOT USE THEIR CUFFS TO CAPTURE CROSS/MACE IN BASE (misconception mb all)
ah, I was unfamiliar with the class, but since they can only catch MACE/CROSS in base I wouldn't call them a "capture class" as Mr. clockwork here was describing ALL of MP.
I don't want to have a chilling effect on people's willingness to make forum posts, but couldn't you have just asked the people in charge of NPU?
Rather than a huge essay about balance inequalities, or even framing it as a game design question- consider that there's dozens of people involved in the decision making process.
The reason you dont see high up NPU members crusading to get it back, is because NPU asked for it to be removed in the first place.
its early in the morning for me, but if i remember right it was requested by riot and sentry. Reason being was cuffs are a jury thing, and 9 times outta 10 when a sentry or a riot was on at the time and a jury wasn't they would be called back to base to arrest an su or something along those lines of which would promptly be gunned down because they couldn't catch up to them. cuffs on riot and sentry just don't make sense.
Discord: Synthetic_Construct
i forgot the format and cant find it, so there you go^
I wrote this at 2am with a desire to ask a question and propose a solution, civilly. I know I didn't do a very good job of keeping it wholesome and polite, but despite how I worded it, I am not angry or upset, just curious, confused, and passionate about the health and longevity of CvR. I'm not the best at structuring my thoughts into words
What happened to the cuffs for RIOT and SENTRY? I think they should get their cuffs back because they are part of NPU.
In the distant past, I remember they had the cuffs so they can do arrests on potential SU's and misbehaving Combine. How can someone who's part of a Military Police class hope to enforce the rules, when he only has weapons, and his options are limited to "USE GUN"? It's not very professional to go brainblasting ONION 09's for goofing off a bit too much, and it degrades the image of a just and fair NPU. If you only have a hammer, every problem becomes a nail, even if you know that a wrench might be better. (Yes, you can argue that the alleged Combine criminal should be handed to a JURY or a CO, but that won't always be an option when it's entirely up to luck if you have a JURY or relevant CO online or not. You could also argue to just screenshot the perpetrator while they're performing the crime, but that's not very "hands-on," and does nothing to stop the perpetrator in the moment, and kinda makes NPU look like they don't care, which in turn makes people less respecting of NPU, which leads to more people misbehaving when they see that the enforcers don't do anything when JURY is offline)
For Rebels, all of the Military Police classes (MP, MP HVY) all have cuffs: MP have it for capturing AND arresting, MP HVY have it just for arresting (right? im combine main idk for sure, but i know the field manual still says MP HVY get cuffs.) While I support the idea of having less "mirror-matches" between the Combine and Rebel faction in terms of class design, I think there are a few hard limits that need to be drawn for the sake of both factions having a reasonable, preferably mostly similar access to a specific kind of class to fill a role (like both factions need to have a vehicle job of roughly equal ability to fill the role of armor and air support, both factions need to have a builder class of roughly equal ability to fulfill the role of creating strongpoints, etc. For example, there shouldn't be 2 builders and 3 half-builder-half-combat classes for Combine while Rebels only get 1 dedicated builder, you get the idea. You could argue that Techies vs KILO/FOXTROT is a case of too much asymmetry, which is true, but it's kinda sorta balanced when Combine get drones.) In this case, I feel that it is too restrictive for Combine side to only have 1/3rd of their Military Police division actually be able to fulfill the role of a rule-enforcer and internal policer, compared to Rebels, who have their entire Military Police division able to do internal arrests.
(failed to stay civil, neutral-sided and on-topic here, i tried)
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Furthermore, Stealth classes should ideally have a high risk of being captured as a tradeoff for having the ability to stealth and infiltrate in the first place. Combine need more coverage regarding "policing the team" due to SU's entire job being to disguise as Combine and cause trouble, and the only way to properly convict them of being an SU without seeing them perform a crime in front of you, is to question or interrogate them (which goes back to the point of, how can you interrogate properly if they can just run away or shoot you?) whereas Rebels need to simply SEE the MACE to know he's a clear and immediate threat. (Yes, I know, MACE is invisible, but at least when he appears, you know he's hostile. With SU, you never know he's an enemy until you've already been shot, unless you're questioning every Combine unit you pass, which is a funny joke, or keeping an eye on every ally at all times to make sure they don't flick-shot headshot you, which is also a funny joke.) MACEs also run the risk of having their footsteps heard if they're in an area Combine don't normally go (ie. around or inside Rebel base, or just in the desolate areas of the battlefield) while SU's can't be detected AT ALL without stopping them and making them stay still for questioning (or using exterior clues like their pfp, the sound of their voice, or their overall behavior and personality, which is bannable.) As it currently stands, Rebels have 2 classes equipped with the gear and privileges necessary to capture/interrogate MACE, whereas Combine currently only have ONE (1) class equipped with the gear necessary to capture/interrogate SU. All while SU have much more versatility and flexibility in terms of how they can damage the Combine's gameplan, strategy, organization, and team trust and coordination over longterm, due to the nature of how many options TURNING INTO THE ENEMY gives you. Meanwhile MACE's invisibility only really lets you pick off specific targets for a quick few kills before having to pull back and reassess the situation, and only strengthens the bond in your allies as you have to rely on your fellow fighters to cover each other's backs. (I will admit, MACE has more utility in terms of spying and stealing vehicles, but I would strongly argue SU triggers a stronger negative response overall, because it feels more like a teamkill, and they have more ability to sway the Combine's overall status by injecting bad ideas into the chain of command and generally being a minge to get COs to stop and help them, and by extension getting the COs to stop commanding the faction. All of this to say, ALL of NPU needs to be able to police properly, not just JURY and not just COs)
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I don't know why the cuffs were removed in the first place, but if they were removed for a good reason (which i cant think of a single good reason, but hey, i dont have years of game design experience) perhaps there could be a compromise and only RIOT/SENTRY NCO+ get to have cuffs re-added.
Without cuffs and the ability to arrest Combine and SU's, it feels like RIOT and SENTRY are a needless, "private base-defense goon-squad" bloat on NPU whose only purpose is to fight, and should be repurposed into new OTA or have their special gear split up over the subdivisions (which no one wants, but currently, the only thing they have the ability to do is shoot gun, which is more the job of OTA and MPF.)
That's most of my thoughts, I have more but can't remember them all, might edit later or add an extra comment. I know it doesn't look like it, but I do not write in hate, despite how it kinda turned into a rant about SU's toward the end, I just want to have a civil conversation. I very much appreciate the work the devs and staff put in, despite some changes not always being in the right direction, and I want both factions to stop ripping into each other over petty nonsense (we're all guilty of it, myself included, just look at the heavily biased opinionated SU paragraph). But like I said earlier, all of this is to say that ALL of NPU needs cuffs in order to police properly. Only leaving JURY and the occasional CO responsible for all arrests just isn't feasible, especially with how popular RIOT and SENTRY are right now.
TLDR: RIOT/SHIELD deserve to have cuffs, all of MP has cuffs so why doesn't all of NPU have cuffs? Without them, RIOT and SHIELD are just frontline combat classes and should be put in OTA since they can't do internal arrests. You need cuffs to properly combat SU disguises, MACE only truly requires a gun to be fought effectively (controversial, i know, but i stand by it. im combine main, so take that into account, but i do play rebs often)
I don't know how to edit, so I'm putting this here.
Towards the bottom of the SU paragraph where it says "and only strengthens the bond in your allies as you have to rely on your fellow fighters to cover each other's backs," I mean that fighting MACE as Rebels will tend to build your trust in your allies, since you have to rely on each other to fight him. Fighting SU as Combine tends to erode your trust in your allies, and slowly over the course of the map will cause Combine to break up, spread out and be less coordinated (in my experience.) This is because anyone you meet on the field or anyone in your squad could be an SU, and you have to take your attention away from watching out for hostiles and instead focus on determining if this guy is actually regrouping with you or if he's about to blow your brains out.
I know I keep going off topic, but it all ties into how RIOT/SHIELD need cuffs to do their job.
I also realize way too late that I put SHIELD instead of SENTRY on a few of those... kms
I MEANT SENTRY, NOT SHIELD!!!!!!!
1. Riot and Sentry would have to both be trained on how to handle detainees and would both require a TR phase to gauge responsibility with the cuffs.
2. SU hunting was not RIOT/SENTRY's job even when they had the cuffs, that was entirely JURY's domain, the whole section you wrote on catching SU is basically null and void because they weren't allowed to in the first place.
3. there are generally more CO's on at one time than NPU during the course of the entire day, trading the RIOT/SENTRY cuffs to CO jobs (who are already familiar with dealing in matters that require demotions) was just a better choice all around as there are more of them and they are already held to this higher standard without requiring much training.
4. this is not a new situation for NPU, RIOT and SENTRY have had better numbers and retention while NOT having cuffs.
5. as a JURY CO I have not gotten any reports or seen any reports in my CO comms about a lack of classes with cuffs leading to a major incident that staff couldn't handle. most of the incidents I hear about are usually MRDM or RDM bans/warns that don't warrant having extra manpower in the cuffing department.
6. I'm not going to speak about MP very much but I'm like 90% sure MP HVY hasn't had cuffs in years, I'm pretty sure they got rid of them for a Utility (like the Flieger Faust and gas grenades for example.). that might need to be updated in the manual if it still says they have them.
7. lastly anything to do with "capturing" the other faction is fluff, it's not an essential part of the gameplay loop and is mostly for "RP" purposes, I won't be taking any points about those seriously.
so yeah there is my two cents
-NPU JURY OFC-I Faktor
MP HVY Does in fact have their cuffs. They're mainly used for maintaining order in base (arresting bad rebels), but can be used to capture CROSS/MACE discovered inside of base, and they are allowed to handle interrogations. (The latter is a more recent addition; even I was surprised when they were allowed this)
However, they stem from a class which primary purpose is capturing and interrogating, and requires a bit of playtime past TR phase in order to gain said class, so it's pretty clear as to why they're entrusted with cuffs. Overall I agree with what you've said though: If someone is being so bad they need to be cuffed, CO's have that under control. If they aren't being detained, then there's always contacting people via discord/staff chat. If a SU is in base, shoot him lmao. I'll drop a more detailed breakdown on the original post sometime later.
EDIT: MP HVY CANNOT USE THEIR CUFFS TO CAPTURE CROSS/MACE IN BASE (misconception mb all)
.
Rather than a huge essay about balance inequalities, or even framing it as a game design question- consider that there's dozens of people involved in the decision making process.
The reason you dont see high up NPU members crusading to get it back, is because NPU asked for it to be removed in the first place.