Staff/Player's Name: Dodgy (Dodgy#3621) and Katharina (Fel#8253)
Staff/Player's Steam ID: I only have their Discord ID's
Requested Action against Staff/Player: Warning/Sanction/Demotion
Reason for complaint?
The reason I am complaining is about how the ban was handed and how an unwritten rule was enforced given there was not even evidence but just a misinterpreted statement in a confidential debate about scrapping piles.
As you all know, I got permanently banned for the alleged reason: Hacking. I appealed the ban and it got rightfully revised.
However, the thing I have a problem with is how this whole thing actually escalated to this drastic and excessive ban and I severely question the competence of the said Head Admins who ,that at the given point of time (before 15th August 2020, enforced an unwritten rule without any rule-set backing up their claim...especially the lack of in game evidence or any signs of evidence. I understand that the staff has a precedence in taking precarious measurements to provide and maintain a undisturbed gameplay, however, this was definitely not the case here. As Aura confirmed the improper address of macros (them basically not covered in any rules-et) that existed until the aftermath of my ban, you should've known better and not ban someone grossly negligent, especially without any slick of evidence. With this unacceptable behavior, you actually damage this community and ruin the reputation for the whole staff team itself. Furthermore, I advise you kindly to reconsider your comprehension of the meaning of actual "hacking".
Furthermore, If someone is bringing up the point " Uh we cannot put everything into the "!motd" it will be too much to read etc." I remember Fel, who ISSUED this ban, said that all rules you need and should know are stated in both !motd and discord. As Aura stated in the aforementioned quotation, there was absolutely no proper coverage on the use of macros / third party software on both "legitimate" sources of rule-sets that Fel is apparently judging his punishments on. This is a poor performance for anyone in such a high position, the same applies to Dodgy who stated that the use of macros are "illegal" and count as hacking.Furthermore, he said that the server rules prohibit the use of such when at that point of time...they absolutely didn't. As I said before, this underlines the question of their competence in the position of "head administrators".
It is beyond me how this could escalate into a permanent ban in the first place, given the fact that the accused allegations never took place (hacking). Furthermore, this particular term especially leads to an effect of defamation among the community.
And again on a side note, there was absolutely no evidence or proof that this "macro aka hacking" has been utilized in game or anywhere in the realms of Definitive Networks. Just vague words outside of the game's jurisdiction.
Again, I am thankful that Aura and DEFN management took appropriate actions to prevent things like these happening in the future by adding them clearly to the rule set and letting every player equally know about this..but for those head-admins involved, this was a terrible performance.
[b]https://definitivenetworksgmod.com/rules#cvr (Version: Last Modified: June 28th, 2020 @ 12:59pm EST)[/b] [b][b]Discord Server: ID 350480317297197057 (official CvR Discord) Channel: 684641756075261962 (Rule clarification) Date: Before 15th of August 2020.[/b][/b]
The staff members involved only did their job. Numerous people have been banned before for using third-party scripts/macro's. Those would be gun macro's, anti-afk macro's and in your case a scrap pile macro. Third-party software for macro's is considered hacking if I'm not mistaken, it just wasn't made clear until now, which is why you were unbanned.
Don't HA have the power to set a rule at that time unless stated otherwise? (rules-clarification/MOTD)
For sure I agree with the fact that you shouldn't have been banned as they didn't state the rules in either of the above-mentioned locations they should be stated at.
But yeah as raven said it happened and its cleared up now. (sometimes a ban takes a bit longer to be resolved, I had my fair share of it.)
I guess this is a lesson for them for the next time it happens? and if it does you are free to report them and I'll fully back you up on it.
As false bans should never be handed out as a lot of players had their fair share of it back in the day.
@Raven
The role of the staff member is to enforce the predetermined rules set by the higher ups (management/community owner). That is at least what the !motd and rules-clarification strongly indicate. Those people who got caught could've appealed it like me and their ban would probably be appealed. As Hong Kong stated in my appeal, why weren't those rules added when the first permabans/bans for macroing were handed out?
I got unbanned because 1.) Macroing was not stated anywhere in the rules and 2.) That ban was unjustified given the stated circumstances stated in my appeal.
@ Bel1ve
The !motd and rule clarification only state that admin have the final say over the already existing rules and their punishment so far as I read. Correct me if I am wrong though.
The thing is, this kept on happening (people getting banned over macroing apparently). It should've been stated in the rules in the first place to prevent follow-ups.
(18 Aug 20 at 12:17pm)Pistol Wrote:
I got unbanned because 1.) Macroing was not stated anywhere in the rules and 2.) That ban was unjustified given the stated circumstances stated in my appeal.
You were unbanned because a higher up had made a mistake. The ban was completely justified as you stated yourself that you utilize macros on the server. I fail to see how this quote would constitute as “vague“.
I have no need to make any further comment as I’ve already spoken to Aura about the issue and I’m sure they’ll resolve the case soon enough.
"The reason I am complaining is about how the ban was handed and how an unwritten rule was enforced given there was not even evidence but just a misinterpreted statement in a confidential debate about scrapping piles." - Pistol
I'm not sure why the replies are derailing from the initial point being made from the post. Unless the staff members are supposed to ban people who may tip the line of breaking rules, I still fail to see how they were just "doing their jobs". How can any ban be justified based off of a vague interpretation of the definition of hacking? The offense of hacking is definitely ban-able, but there was nothing defining the use of macros anywhere in the rules. Binds, something very similar to macros, are very common and even encouraged to use in-game. The OPs concern is that the staff members may continue to ban people with unfair interpretation of the rules.
The OP understands that this was resolved, but wants to make sure that staff understand that this was a mistake and that they have learned something from it (from what I've gathered from the post). While I haven't seen the potential apologies that were given behind the scenes, the replies I've seen here don't seem to be apologetic, but rather trying to justify actions that were already deemed by the parties involved as a mistake. If admins continue to ban off of vague rules, then we may see more potential issues, especially since getting banned and then unbanned has some side effects already mentioned in the original post.
The HAs are more than competent in their jobs as I have seen in the past and present, they were doing their jobs which I’m sure you could understand. It’s common sense that ‘hacking’ is using third-party softwares for an advantage over players, this advantage being that of you got more resources automatically when you were afk if I see?
@ Dodgy
It is beyond me how you fail to comprehend the actual point of this post. I advise you to read Captain McGee's comment so it may help you to understand what point I am on about..
But I'd like to comment on your comment.
How can you ban someone over a rule that is nowhere covered or even defined in the slightest? It is funny how you only show one extract of what I said and took it out of context. I have shared the longer extract of the chat to Aura..but again that is not the point.
You are saying the ban was completely justified. Y'all be the judge! Let's run down a checklist at the date of occurrence.
1.) Visual evidence of said Violation of Rule? | None
2.) Statement that I -clearly- used third party macros | None | (even though the use of third party software wasn't defined anywhere anyways)
3.) Were the use of macros prohibited in any traceable instance? | None
4.) Rule against/about third party software to macro ? | None
5.) Any definition that clarifies the user equally of said Violation of Rules [Using macros / third party software to macro is considered hacking] | None
6.) Rule about usage of any third-party software ? | None [You must consider that not everyone has the same mindset or ""duh common sense"" background as you do and require important clarifications]
In the aftermath, I went to all rules-set pages possible...O what a surprise, no results at all. These rules were not even mentioned in the slickest for the player.
I have the feeling you absolutely fail to see the gameplay/setup of rules in the perspective of a player without all the staffing background. Your absolute misinterpretations and your " I am a Headadmin I have the final say" to enforce rules that were not even comprehensible / traceable for any player to acknowledge just shows how you are unsuitable in this position. And I may speak for many here who completely lost joy in communities/servers where the staffing team makes up rules that no player could possibly know of and ban them immediately!
Kinda paradox for a server that claims business alike titles for their management roles.
Some of you keep preaching about " Oh uhhh..common sense dude..that aint allowed". Maybe it would be a good time to reconsider this. It is also common sense that the only information a player can retrieve about rules are the official rule-sets provided by the server/community's site you play on. Not every player is omniscient and knows all the "behind the scenes unwritten nonexistent vague rules" that are nowhere listed/stated or referred to in the slightest....
@ AlexMagus
If you read my post you will probably understand this case more than just blurting out the stuff you've said. :c
(18 Aug 20 at 2:57pm)Pistol Wrote: @ Dodgy
It is beyond me how you fail to comprehend the actual point of this post. I advise you to read Captain McGee's comment so it may help you to understand what point I am on about..
But I'd like to comment on your comment.
How can you ban someone over a rule that is nowhere covered or even defined in the slightest? It is funny how you only show one extract of what I said and took it out of context. I have shared the longer extract of the chat to Aura..but again that is not the point.
You are saying the ban was completely justified. Y'all be the judge! Let's run down a checklist at the date of occurrence.
1.) Visual evidence of said Violation of Rule? | None
2.) Statement that I -clearly- used third party macros | None | (even though the use of third party software wasn't defined anywhere anyways)
3.) Were the use of macros prohibited in any traceable instance? | None
4.) Rule against/about third party software to macro ? | None
5.) Any definition that clarifies the user equally of said Violation of Rules [Using macros / third party software to macro is considered hacking] | None
6.) Rule about usage of any third-party software ? | None [You must consider that not everyone has the same mindset or ""duh common sense"" background as you do and require important clarifications]
In the aftermath, I went to all rules-set pages possible...O what a surprise, no results at all. These rules were not even mentioned in the slickest for the player.
I have the feeling you absolutely fail to see the gameplay/setup of rules in the perspective of a player without all the staffing background. Your absolute misinterpretations and your " I am a Headadmin I have the final say" to enforce rules that were not even comprehensible / traceable for any player to acknowledge just shows how you are unsuitable in this position. And I may speak for many here who completely lost joy in communities/servers where the staffing team makes up rules that no player could possibly know of and ban them immediately!
Kinda paradox for a server that claims business alike titles for their management roles.
Some of you keep preaching about " Oh uhhh..common sense dude..that aint allowed". Maybe it would be a good time to reconsider this. It is also common sense that the only information a player can retrieve about rules are the official rule-sets provided by the server/community's site you play on. Not every player is omniscient and knows all the "behind the scenes unwritten nonexistent vague rules" that are nowhere listed/stated or referred to in the slightest....
@ AlexMagus
If you read my post you will probably understand this case more than just blurting out the stuff you've said. :c
Just to add something real quick.
Staff have banned players for the usage of macro's due to players gaining an unfair advantage.
But never decided to state this as a rule, I suppose they thought it was common sense it was disallowed.
I appreciate your input!
However, the reason they got banned was really untraceable for anyone except the ones who witnessed that in the moment. Hence why I utilize the point of the lack of equally distributed rules that keeps everyone up to date.
...but again, no evidence that I actually practiced the use of third party software over a scrappile that has a COOLDOWN of 2 SECONDS anyways.....other than a ripped out of context sentence in discord.
I hope my point I am trying to make is more clearer. I am genuinely concerned that the staff members may continue to ban people with nonexistent rules | unfair interpretation of the rules which can harm the community.
Discord Username: Pistol#9111
Steam ID: [b]STEAM_0:1:20645619[/b]
Staff/Player's Name: Dodgy (Dodgy#3621) and Katharina (Fel#8253)
Staff/Player's Steam ID: I only have their Discord ID's
Requested Action against Staff/Player: Warning/Sanction/Demotion
Reason for complaint?
The reason I am complaining is about how the ban was handed and how an unwritten rule was enforced given there was not even evidence but just a misinterpreted statement in a confidential debate about scrapping piles.
As you all know, I got permanently banned for the alleged reason: Hacking. I appealed the ban and it got rightfully revised.
However, the thing I have a problem with is how this whole thing actually escalated to this drastic and excessive ban and I severely question the competence of the said Head Admins who ,that at the given point of time (before 15th August 2020, enforced an unwritten rule without any rule-set backing up their claim...especially the lack of in game evidence or any signs of evidence. I understand that the staff has a precedence in taking precarious measurements to provide and maintain a undisturbed gameplay, however, this was definitely not the case here. As Aura confirmed the improper address of macros (them basically not covered in any rules-et) that existed until the aftermath of my ban, you should've known better and not ban someone grossly negligent, especially without any slick of evidence. With this unacceptable behavior, you actually damage this community and ruin the reputation for the whole staff team itself. Furthermore, I advise you kindly to reconsider your comprehension of the meaning of actual "hacking".
Furthermore, If someone is bringing up the point " Uh we cannot put everything into the "!motd" it will be too much to read etc." I remember Fel, who ISSUED this ban, said that all rules you need and should know are stated in both !motd and discord. As Aura stated in the aforementioned quotation, there was absolutely no proper coverage on the use of macros / third party software on both "legitimate" sources of rule-sets that Fel is apparently judging his punishments on. This is a poor performance for anyone in such a high position, the same applies to Dodgy who stated that the use of macros are "illegal" and count as hacking.Furthermore, he said that the server rules prohibit the use of such when at that point of time...they absolutely didn't. As I said before, this underlines the question of their competence in the position of "head administrators".
It is beyond me how this could escalate into a permanent ban in the first place, given the fact that the accused allegations never took place (hacking). Furthermore, this particular term especially leads to an effect of defamation among the community.
And again on a side note, there was absolutely no evidence or proof that this "macro aka hacking" has been utilized in game or anywhere in the realms of Definitive Networks. Just vague words outside of the game's jurisdiction.
Again, I am thankful that Aura and DEFN management took appropriate actions to prevent things like these happening in the future by adding them clearly to the rule set and letting every player equally know about this..but for those head-admins involved, this was a terrible performance.
Evidence/Other:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments...essage.png
[b]https://definitivenetworksgmod.com/rules#cvr (Version: Last Modified: June 28th, 2020 @ 12:59pm EST)[/b]
[b][b]Discord Server: ID 350480317297197057 (official CvR Discord) Channel: 684641756075261962 (Rule clarification) Date: Before 15th of August 2020.[/b][/b]
For sure I agree with the fact that you shouldn't have been banned as they didn't state the rules in either of the above-mentioned locations they should be stated at.
But yeah as raven said it happened and its cleared up now. (sometimes a ban takes a bit longer to be resolved, I had my fair share of it.)
I guess this is a lesson for them for the next time it happens? and if it does you are free to report them and I'll fully back you up on it.
As false bans should never be handed out as a lot of players had their fair share of it back in the day.
The role of the staff member is to enforce the predetermined rules set by the higher ups (management/community owner). That is at least what the !motd and rules-clarification strongly indicate. Those people who got caught could've appealed it like me and their ban would probably be appealed. As Hong Kong stated in my appeal, why weren't those rules added when the first permabans/bans for macroing were handed out?
I got unbanned because 1.) Macroing was not stated anywhere in the rules and 2.) That ban was unjustified given the stated circumstances stated in my appeal.
@ Bel1ve
The !motd and rule clarification only state that admin have the final say over the already existing rules and their punishment so far as I read. Correct me if I am wrong though.
The thing is, this kept on happening (people getting banned over macroing apparently). It should've been stated in the rules in the first place to prevent follow-ups.
You were unbanned because a higher up had made a mistake. The ban was completely justified as you stated yourself that you utilize macros on the server. I fail to see how this quote would constitute as “vague“.
I have no need to make any further comment as I’ve already spoken to Aura about the issue and I’m sure they’ll resolve the case soon enough.
I'm not sure why the replies are derailing from the initial point being made from the post. Unless the staff members are supposed to ban people who may tip the line of breaking rules, I still fail to see how they were just "doing their jobs". How can any ban be justified based off of a vague interpretation of the definition of hacking? The offense of hacking is definitely ban-able, but there was nothing defining the use of macros anywhere in the rules. Binds, something very similar to macros, are very common and even encouraged to use in-game. The OPs concern is that the staff members may continue to ban people with unfair interpretation of the rules.
The OP understands that this was resolved, but wants to make sure that staff understand that this was a mistake and that they have learned something from it (from what I've gathered from the post). While I haven't seen the potential apologies that were given behind the scenes, the replies I've seen here don't seem to be apologetic, but rather trying to justify actions that were already deemed by the parties involved as a mistake. If admins continue to ban off of vague rules, then we may see more potential issues, especially since getting banned and then unbanned has some side effects already mentioned in the original post.
The staff included should not be punished.
It is beyond me how you fail to comprehend the actual point of this post. I advise you to read Captain McGee's comment so it may help you to understand what point I am on about..
But I'd like to comment on your comment.
How can you ban someone over a rule that is nowhere covered or even defined in the slightest? It is funny how you only show one extract of what I said and took it out of context. I have shared the longer extract of the chat to Aura..but again that is not the point.
You are saying the ban was completely justified. Y'all be the judge! Let's run down a checklist at the date of occurrence.
1.) Visual evidence of said Violation of Rule? | None
2.) Statement that I -clearly- used third party macros | None | (even though the use of third party software wasn't defined anywhere anyways)
3.) Were the use of macros prohibited in any traceable instance? | None
4.) Rule against/about third party software to macro ? | None
5.) Any definition that clarifies the user equally of said Violation of Rules [Using macros / third party software to macro is considered hacking] | None
6.) Rule about usage of any third-party software ? | None [You must consider that not everyone has the same mindset or ""duh common sense"" background as you do and require important clarifications]
In the aftermath, I went to all rules-set pages possible...O what a surprise, no results at all. These rules were not even mentioned in the slickest for the player.
I have the feeling you absolutely fail to see the gameplay/setup of rules in the perspective of a player without all the staffing background. Your absolute misinterpretations and your " I am a Headadmin I have the final say" to enforce rules that were not even comprehensible / traceable for any player to acknowledge just shows how you are unsuitable in this position. And I may speak for many here who completely lost joy in communities/servers where the staffing team makes up rules that no player could possibly know of and ban them immediately!
Kinda paradox for a server that claims business alike titles for their management roles.
Some of you keep preaching about " Oh uhhh..common sense dude..that aint allowed". Maybe it would be a good time to reconsider this. It is also common sense that the only information a player can retrieve about rules are the official rule-sets provided by the server/community's site you play on. Not every player is omniscient and knows all the "behind the scenes unwritten nonexistent vague rules" that are nowhere listed/stated or referred to in the slightest....
@ AlexMagus
If you read my post you will probably understand this case more than just blurting out the stuff you've said. :c
Just to add something real quick.
Staff have banned players for the usage of macro's due to players gaining an unfair advantage.
But never decided to state this as a rule, I suppose they thought it was common sense it was disallowed.
However, the reason they got banned was really untraceable for anyone except the ones who witnessed that in the moment. Hence why I utilize the point of the lack of equally distributed rules that keeps everyone up to date.
...but again, no evidence that I actually practiced the use of third party software over a scrappile that has a COOLDOWN of 2 SECONDS anyways.....other than a ripped out of context sentence in discord.
I hope my point I am trying to make is more clearer. I am genuinely concerned that the staff members may continue to ban people with nonexistent rules | unfair interpretation of the rules which can harm the community.