Medic/HELIX is dead


B E E S  VIP 25 Jan 25 at 2:37pm Edited
#1
I haven't seen active medics on Rebel since defibs were removed, and HELIXs aren't very common anymore either, and with the latest update making revive speed faster, I see more reasons why Medics aren't needed anymore.

Anyone can revive squadmates which is ok, but when server pop hardly breaks 10 people per side, that means there's usually 1 maybe 2 squads, so everyone online can usually revive everyone on their team(due to low pop). There is almost no reason for Medics to exist, the upside of having max health on revive, plus faster revive speed doesn't seem to matter anymore since most players use healing perks, LVET medic can heal(they have taken the medic role on rebel for a while now) and as a Medic you no longer have a revive tool making it easier than staring at someone's body for 5 seconds. Most of the medics I talk to on discord and on the off-time I see one in-game prefer the defibs, so why not bring them back? Medic as a division is becoming a ghost on Rebel, I don't believe it is any officers fault no one wants to play a class that's abilities are available to every other class, and even better in some cases like when compared to the LVET medic, they can heal, revive squadmates, and do everything for their squad a Medic could but better since they can be in combat more. So when I see an update coming out that increases revive speed, even if it's for medics too, I see this digging the Medic classes grave as people don't need to be a Medic to do Medic things. 

I don't know a ton about Medic as a whole, but I do know that they are disappearing, letting divisions flop like this does not help with server activity, we need all divisions and all parts of CvR to want to be active, so why do we keep taking away from a division when they need buffs/support the most? 

Bring back defibs. If you disagree let me know why, I'm open to criticism, I hate to see a part of my division die out because of something as simple as class abilities being available elsewhere.

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[DEFN] Sentinel  President 25 Jan 25 at 2:39pm Edited
#2
How exactly does it harm medic classes if their revive time is also halved to be nearly instant, and they revive to full health when squad revives dont?
Blaming the revive changes is just a strawman, medics hardly ever revived responsibility, only ran up spammed lmb to revive in situations where they obviously shouldnt, and then instantly got that person killed.
Defibs are only preferable to medics because it enables you to get all the rewards of reviving someone, without any of the thought or strategy that should go into such a crucial game mechanic.

Also, you fundamentally misinterpret the intent to have all divisions be active. A division should be active, yes, but when their activity consisted of self-serving behavior and with no care for the experience of the person they're actually reviving, then no that's not GOOD activity, and not something I will encourage. Not all activity is good activity, especially when that activity actively worsened the experience for everybody else

Don't even get me started on the fact that medics and helixes didn't actually revive people much at all when defibs existed (and when they did it often was more harm than help due to the aforementioned reasons). If it was an ability they truly cared about and wanted to protect, they would treat it as such. Changes don't come about randomly, and the revive system would never have been reworked if medics and helix actually did their job to a degree everyone else finds adequate.
B E E S  VIP 25 Jan 25 at 3:28pm
#3
I agree there was a lot of thoughtless reviving that led to people just instantly dying again, however, I do know there were a lot of good medics who could use their class well and have battle sense when to revive someone(I can name them if you want). Yes it was spotty and overall maybe not the best, but now that reviving is a universal ability medics are disappearing and you can't deny that.

To say that they should be grateful they had the defib in the first place and should've protected it more/treated it as such so it wouldn't be removed in the first place is wack, expecting an entry-level battalion to uphold the main part of their class shouldn't be something they should ever have to do when its literally their main class function on top of most medics not fully understanding forum posting and server communication. Obviously they do care about it because I haven't seen substantial medic activity since the defib was removed and reviving became available to squads.

Yes you are right self-serving behaviour is bad for activity, the dumb reviving that leads to insta death is a huge turnoff, but are you really ok with watching medics get outsourced by other divisions? If defibs aren't right for medic, something else has to be or I don't think Medic as a division will ever have people looking to join it if they know they can be a healer elsewhere with better tools(LVET medic). The reason I made this post was because I see other classes replacing medic, and the class as a whole is becoming extinct.

So really what I would like to know is whether this is an issue management deems important(medic division disappearing) and/or is it better for the majority of community activity that we let a division falter/die in the name of all other divisions(since you say the issue is dumb revivers killing activity for other divisions with stupid revives). IMO comparing class functions and outcomes from opinions from other divisions is only helpful to a certain extent, eventually others not part of that division will keep pushing for nerfs that take away from prime mechanics a class relies on, which happened to the RPG for example(which has now been fixed).

If I see medics coming around because of the new update to revive speed I am wrong, you're right, but until then I see it like a George and Lennie situation, George being CvR and Lennie being the medic(s) who joined a beginner battalion and is wondering why people are mad he's a beginner. (Of Mice and Men reference for those who don't know)
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[DEFN] Sentinel  President 25 Jan 25 at 3:46pm Edited
#4
I don't mean "defend" the class through forum posts or dev discussion. The single best way to defend a class' status quo is to do their job as it should be done, without causing harm to other people and by not needing to be told what to do.

As for listening primarily to medic and helix to determine the interests of their class, is just fundamentally a flawed way to do things. Sure, if not handled correctly it can lead to classes being neutered because of the annoyance they cause for everyone else. But more than anything, the biggest issue was them hardly doing their job at all in regards to reviving. If they cant even do their own job adequately, why should I trust anything else they have to say. The one thing they were meant to do, even when they had a extreme monopoly over it, they simply didn't do.
In that line, to then blame management or developer changes for a sudden lack of appeal is frankly absurd. Defibs did not drive overall class appeal. It has always been healing. Almost all of the support actions players saw from medic classes were healing, not revives.

What this is, is a convenient excuse (whether you intend for it to be an excuse or not), to avoid a bigger conversation about player motivation. Avoiding it is a reasonable thing for people to do, as player motivation is such a monolithic and intimidating issue that it feels hopeless. So, we blame it on things we CAN change, just to make ourselves feel more in control.
This is exactly the problem with this community as a whole. Neither you nor anybody else has bad intentions, I know you don't- but you immediately latched onto a development change as the reason for a division falling apart. A division is a group of people cooperating in the name of having fun. A well-run division could have literally no special attributes or utilities, and still be active and successful off of that sense of community alone.

This isn't to say that people should settle for less - just that if your diagnosis of a problem that stems FROM PEOPLE, is to blame ANYTHING OTHER than the habits of THOSE PEOPLE, you will never actually solve the problem.

My goal is and always will be preserving the wellbeing of the community and its members as a WHOLE.
Outside of "medic and helix is dying", you have not given me ANYTHING that actually proves it'd be a good thing for the SERVER AS A WHOLE if medic classes were to be the sole revivers again.
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Spome  Member 25 Jan 25 at 5:36pm
#5
Hello! First time commenting kinda nervous! However, I do agree with Bee that giving medics/helixes revive back will help the class, and I also believe it will make the gameplay experience better. As of now, revives are gone from the game, as people rarely interact with the system. In my perspective, this is because it simply is too challenging to get a revival off: it's really slow and requires you to look directly at the floor for that time. Thus, it is almost always more effective to just respawn on your squad member rather than waiting for a revive, as the challenging nature of revivals requires that all nearby enemies be killed first, which by then the respawn timer would have finished. Reinstating the defibs, or some variation with a similar function, in my opinion, seems to be a good change, bringing people back into the action much quicker. Honestly, there should probably be public polls for these things, but I stand with Bee and think adding defibs back would bring more fun into the experience.
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Redert  Server Moderator 25 Jan 25 at 9:12pm
#6
I don't know about them being dead because of a dev change, but I do agree, I think the removal of the defibs in exchange for anyone being able to hold E on a body wasn't the right way to go. Personally, I think having defibs out and actually reviving someone (not gonna talk about animations cuz its gmod) was better than just holding E on someone.. I honestly can't remember what prompted the change anyways.
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B E E S  VIP 25 Jan 25 at 10:29pm
#7
We should not take away squad revives, that would not benefit the server. However Medics still deserve to be able to have a tool or something that lets them revive differently and is not something another class can do, that's the point of the Medic class is to have a healer that does something perks/other classes can't do. Yes near instant revives are a start, but they still require the same action it does for every other player to revive, making it a universal ability when the Medic shouldn't have that for its main function.

Having a class that can revive and heal differently, in a way that impacts the outcome of gameplay(in a good way), is something the whole server would benefit from. The Medic has the Medi-gun which is a great exclusive tool, however it should be matched with something so the class can benefit others more, again benefiting the server by having a class that can keep you fighting. Heavys RPG has the ammo box for friends and more, R&D has vehicles with a repair tool that can also repair props, and Medic has a Medi-gun but nothing that matches well with it that isn't something another class can do. Not that we need to add things to make people want to pick a certain class, rather that we need to have differences between different classes so people would want to use said class because it can do something other classes can't.
Kenny McCormick  VIP 28 Jan 25 at 6:49pm
#8
Take my statement with a grain of salt.
Removing a unique aspect of a class further muddies the water between classes, with the only differentiating factor being weapons, skin, health, and whatever is left of the culture. You can "fix" a problem such as the ones defibrillators presented, but why now? Why fix it if it's been a "problem" for years? I agree selfish revives were a huge issue but discipline, communication, and proper training prevented those issues, at least from my prior experiences.
Take HELIX as a prime example of why this "fix" isn't going to help. Why be a HELIX when JURY (assuming they still have their medkit) now does the same job, but with faster speed, cuffs, and the pedigree of being one of the mighty NPU comrades o7 o7 o7.
I have no place to comment on the climate of the server, since all I post is lore that's loosely tied to the existing writings Desi worked on, but this feels like a compensatory fix in an attempt to draw more people in.
Kratek  Member 28 Jan 25 at 7:34pm
#9
I was under the assumption the decreased TTK mitigated combat reviving sufficiently, but that was rolled back a ways followed by the new revive mechanic.

Hard sell for medics.
Red Sharlet  Head Administrator Affairs Counselor Certified Gamemaster VIP 29 Jan 25 at 5:50pm Edited
#10
The only time I will speak:

As the one of the few players who used to always play support/healers.
With the severe decrease to now moderately decreased TTK. The support class, is starting to feel like more of a shell of its former self. Where it became a high stakes gameplay; where it became that the healer was ALWAYS prioritized to be killed first, if not, the entire squad would be back up and running or could be a cause for a full squad wipe due to the carelessness. Then slowly, it started become redundant on how getting killed and then needing to walk back. So now there are points to spawn, APCs to spawn, and FOBs to spawn nearby. Why bother reviving at all when you can easily respawn nearby. It'd be a lot more faster.
More importantly; the healing. I'm not the greatest fan of the current version of healing. But I tried to give it a shot.
There are at times where, it felt like with enough people, You can make anyone nearly invincible. Though, if we were to flip the coin; similar to low pop where it doesn't feel like its doing much to begin with. Without teamplayer, your not going to heal anyone anytime soon. You might as well mail them the healing. If it wasn't for the low TTK, it'd actually be helpful, but the healing class isn't built for it. The med-station is much more heavily used since its a burst heal. Rather than waiting around for the med beam to help you. The only circumstance where it did truly help, was in when you are actively healing someone while they are in a gun fight. Actively help winning their fights. Though, your playing less like a medic, and more like your trying to be medic from teamfortress 2. I just need the overheal. Something to make me prefer the healing beam, than to the medkit.

The only thing i can suggest to at least help improve helix. Is reducing the revival time to 1 second and introduce an Overheal & Overheal Decay mechanic to offset that TTK healing difference.

Though, take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm just an older player, who; may not completely understand how everything interacts with each other.
{Give me the vaccinator.}


[edit] And yeah, getting people to play medic/helix is always a hassle. When your are looking at other jobs that can actively kill the enemy and make them dead for good. To name a couple. Sword, Shield, Legion, EOW, NPU, literally any combat class is much more preferable than to be a support class. The guy in the back.
Screw always being promoted, and screw the combat reviving. It can happen from time to time, and its only a biproduct of being a support choosing when to revive. I have no issues with the pause timer for revivals. Just how the cookie crumbles when people complain. But i do take issue, is how we are meant to fix an issue when there isn't a real fix. Hell, combat reviving is a way to get someone's attention off of you giving you a next action or at best case, another set of hands. But, now that's "fixed" even then. its still going to happen regardless. Not like nothing is stopping you from doing so. Or its not morally right. but that's besides the point.
Being support, isn't popular. You want dopamine, you want to feel like the guy in the front, you want to be in those high stakes games. But, that isn't the case anymore. just another joe, who can heal you and revive you slightly faster. Even that isn't special anymore.
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