Edit: Thank you for everyone who stops by even if to just read the posts or to put a vote in the poll. This has helped me gain a greater understanding of how the server and its members see the current state of SU
SU is a problem. Thread over. +1s and cheering everywhere.
But why?
Mainly, Lack of enjoyable interaction for either party
I don't feel like a long, organized rant, so I'm going to rapid fire my grievances.
-SU infils are decided by a diceroll, its not easy to get in without being seen, and the entire idea of the disguise is that it allows you to sneak by people, but someone walking towards base is a immediate red alert to id check them. If you lose, infil over, you're dead, which feels unfair. If you win, the person who checked you now knows you're an SU, but cant do anything about it, which feels unfair.
-MACE is a basically unrestricted class that easily outperforms in the field. They have greater mobility, can cloak and decloak at any time (aside from low pop), and don't require any coordination to immediately gun people down or use downright unfair weapon switch binds to quickly dispatch targets.
SU have to tread on a minefield, constantly afraid of an instant CK for run n gunning, forced to coordinated in a gamemode where all coordination and planning is basically ignored. Even if you get the perfect setup, you're prone to just being id checked and immediately killed, forcing you to rethink your plan, where an unlucky MACE could just... go back to the fight immediately.
-Completing objectives while disguised just sucks. OVA will constantly hover around if any unit glances at their precious vehicles once, and you're highly encouraged to disguise as SENTRY. But why? NPU having cl4 clearance gives them an excuse to enter 90% of objective locations (only outlier being overlook office, which they can just BS that they saw a union or something run in), and that SENTRY has easily the best gun for wiping out targets with ease. Why pick any other class when you can just wm1 into npu cells and save your cap immediately?
"Softlocking" is the term used when an OVA just sits there and does nothing to avoid being hijacked. Obviously, they shouldn't be forced to willingly get hijacked, but its so easy to avoid it that the only way to be hijacked is to be intentionally ignorant or be unlucky with who you let into your transport. Another thing is that gunships only have 1 seat, meaning you basically can't steal them, even though you're allowed to for balancing reasons. The only way to is to RP with the FOXTROT, who most likely gun you down if they didn't already for getting within 20m of their precious baby.
-NCO perms. A dreaded issue across both infil classes is that doing literally anything requires an NCO to grant you. To be blunt, this fucking sucks. Many objectives, like assassinations, cap saving, and vehicle sabotage/stealing are TIME SENSITIVE. You do not have the time to wait for SGT Shitnuts to not be busy and finally grant you. It can take upwards of 5-10 minutes and 2-3 requests before someone finally grants you. NCOs arent even the biggest issue, most people ditch their grant binds by the time they reach CO, I guess under the assumption they dont have to grant infil requests anymore. While there are many good people who will look out for these classes which require their permission to have fun, many people will just kinda... ignore it.
Obviously letting fresh SU/MACE infil willy nilly is a bad idea, but requiring NCO perms for every objective change is just awful, even for the NCO who has to constantly type granted on every single change your infiltration requires.
Whats the solution? There isn't one.
If there was, it would be discussed in the suggestions section. But there really is no greater solution that comes to mind than literally reverting SU back to the cloak and cswep combo. Decreasing disguise restrictions would only turn SU into a menace again, and bring back the "neither side has fun" argument that is the crux of this issue already. Increasing RP requirements would only make it even less for combine having to deal with 4 layers of metashields protecting an SU from being outed and killed.
Random infil comparison
Mace: Get perms ---> Cloak ---> Enter base ---> Find objective ---> Position yourself for sabotage/cap saving/assassination ---> Complete objective ---> Cloak ---> Escape
SU: Get perms ---> Disguise (probably as sentry) ---> Enter base ---> Get seen entering base ---> Entire disguise is ruined as you're forced into a diceroll ---> Redeem your free metashield for winning ---> Find your objective ---> Fucking cope as your asssassination/sabotage/steal target avoids you, or as NPU just continue spamming /me checks id until you lose a roll ---> Somehow magically complete your objective against all odds ---> Be shot and killed 98% of the time with little chance for escape (N/A if a steal is somehow successful)
Obviously, I'm probably biased. MACE have issues with MACE checking and door bodyblocks all the time, but SU is in a state that many find very boring, having to constantly worry about whether or not you just committed a ck'able offense by run n gunning, combine complain about the RP rules all the time, and infilling is just a worse experience overall. I think I had more things to rant about, But I'm done for now.
+1 easy solution to this problem is to make mace trash too. give them like a 20 second cloak window then they have to wait like 10 seconds before cloaking again. would make infils definitely more strategized.
(2 Dec 23 at 9:55pm)Luci Wrote: +1 easy solution to this problem is to make mace trash too. give them like a 20 second cloak window then they have to wait like 10 seconds before cloaking again. would make infils definitely more strategized.
Wow. You missed the point. Regardless of if that IS reasonable (on which I may have an opinion), the discussion is about how to change SU to make it more enjoyable, not nerf MACE. Anyways.
We've seen all the permutations of the argument, and we've seen all the permutations of SU's loadout. I've played SU through all of them. The reason why Cloak + Cswep failed (SU actually died) *could* be attributed to CO failure, but that'd violate the entire pedantic argument about "strong class = high activity" and we can't have that.
Regardless, it didn't work before, and saying "just do that again" ignores both any effort put into the current system, and all the prior failings.
The current edition of SU's loadout focuses on In-Character expectations between each side, which both sides' high command are pursuing; setting boundaries for interaction where SUs don't get immediately shot as long as they don't focus on immediately gunning the other side down. Here's the sticker though, SU as it is right now is NOT designed for people whose primary enjoyment comes from gunning down the other team. If you didn't read the announcements, they quite clearly say "SU is now an RP-focused class". If you join SU with any other expectations, you're going to be disappointed.
That all said, there are some good points in here. Dice rolls suck, for one, even though there aren't a *ton* of alternatives to them. I've previously suggested making the outcome dependent on other factors, like hacking terminals or stealing from the weapons locker to make some degree of prep-work and/or teamwork valuable. Something like +15% chance of success per Terminal hacked, ect.
The Compare and Contrast between Cloak and the Disguise Kit's sustainability, especially where it relates to Vehicles, has always been a sucker's bet. People used to make the argument "DK = Combat, Cloak = Infils" but with the class's shift towards RP that is simply antithetical. The easiest partial solution I have to this is creating a method for an SU to change their disguise and wipe their Malignant status on the field. As-is, once you're called out or fail a check, you're done and cannot continue to be an infiltrator, regardless of what you've done previously. I'd also suggest re-adding cswep to SU because the increased mobility helps navigate infiltration routes without being exposed to a sightline.
Also to note, OVA will demote their members for leaving a vehicle unattended, and have rules against going AFK or leaving the server while a vehicle is deployed. Not only is it standard practice to do things that make stealing vehicles nearly impossible (hovering/"softlocking"), players are punished for acting any other way. It's not unreasonable, but it's far easier to defend against an SU compared to a MACE.
These are some very solid points, thank you for giving me someone to bounce ideas off of.
I feel like for most CvR players, forced RP is the vegetables on the theoretical TDM dinner plate. The more you try to shove RP down the combines throat, the more they resist it. I can see how this is an attempt to "change the direction of how SU is interact and be interacted with" but as it stands, pretty much everyone I've seen doesn't like dealing with SURP. They don't like not being able to use their common sense and being forced into probing the SU until they find an excuse to murder them.
This gamemode also isnt a great place for mostly RP roles. CWU is not a very popular class, Anarchist isnt a very popular class, etc. While having more focus on RP can be fine, literally stripping your ability to have an effect on the field and do something during times where such RP scenarios are unavailable has ruined the enjoyment perceived from playing a class. Not a lot of people play anarchist outside of factions after they took away their gun. Removing any and all ability to use the disguise kit unless for rare, undefined coordinated scenarios has stripped SU of its ability to "passively" play on the field without necessarily always engaging in their specific role.
While it can easily be said the solution is to play your other character or other side, this is a pretty universally weak argument that cannot apply to some people and scenarios. The MACE cloak has this solved by the fact it easily serves as a useful tool in the field and in their infiltrations, while SU can only find much use out of infiltrations.
And yes, coordination is possible, dooming on cvr players and saying they cant plan anything is also a weak argument, but at the same time, you're still treading a thin line of what is and is not run and gun. I even receive warnings to not do coordinated disguise efforts too often, because then people will just complain its a run and gun scenario.
Re-adding cswep alone for its ability to find ways around and into base without necessarily requiring a sightline is a good idea, and means I wouldn't have to run haste paratrooper floaty all the time to get around to the more hard to access parts of bases, like the rooftops (Which extends into the issue of people wondering why [x] class is running so fast and using it as an excuse to probe you until they can shoot you)
"Regardless, it didn't work before, and saying "just do that again" ignores both any effort put into the current system, and all the prior failings." This is the sad truth to the situation, and there is genuinely nothing to say against it. I didn't know SU actually died, just noticed a severe lack of SU activity at the time.
I do feel like, however, that in the current state of the server, there is little place for a class solely based on RP, and should serve as a niche class (such as CWU) rather than one of the more important classes (in my opinion) when it comes to gameplay.
Edited:
Aditionally, this results in SU feeling much more "restrictive" your actions and freedom in what can be done is limited, and therefore less enjoyable, which is probably why SU and MACE are often compared, even in my own arguments. MACE generally just has the freedom to do more things, which makes it seem much more enjoyable.
And about being disappointed if you joined for something other than RP, I could run a poll with a bunch of members of SU, but I feel like its fairly obvious to assume that most people didn't join "because I like the RP interactions SU can have". Most joined because SU serves a unique role in infiltration, or because the disguise kit is a cool part of their kit, or because stealing vehicles right from the combines grasp is incredibly fun, not to sit in front of a sentry going back n forth about why you arent an SU
"I do feel like, however, that in the current state of the server, there is little place for a class solely based on RP".
You are correct. However, the server has been slowly changing, and will continue to do so.
Something to note, is that I make changes in advance of when they're actually relevant. SU's rules may not be the best now, but it's a single puzzle piece of a much larger picture.
"However, the server has been slowly changing, and will continue to do so."
I feel like this has been said for over a year now, but I'm really not feeling it. There's this insistence that what's being done is for the "grander scheme" of the server and that I just have to wait, but nothing really comes up. Its been a year, and I come back to see GRID is doing just as bad as it did previously, completely missing an entire category of members, with promises from high comm that it "will eventually get better" and "will eventually be fixed", and that "building classes will soon serve a more important purpose on the field". And while I know you aren't behind the management of factions and divisions and dont make the choices regarding them, it feels like a similar situation where nothing really feels like its changing aside from a couple things becoming worse.
I'm not really seeing how these plans are coming into fruition, especially when they're slowly released in this way, which is making a class actively unenjoyable to play as and against, when it would be more convenient to release a set of said large shifts at a time, to prevent said classes from becoming stale and boring from the place you've suddenly thrust them into.
And even if this is a part of a series of changes to the server, whats next? Mace have no cloak and have to pretend to be invisible while people "/me checks for invisible people" and roll until they find them? I don't see how this is going to line up and it doesn't really give me faith in the future of the server if "It'll eventually come together" is constantly repeated like a broken record.
(2 Dec 23 at 9:55pm)Luci Wrote: +1 easy solution to this problem is to make mace trash too. give them like a 20 second cloak window then they have to wait like 10 seconds before cloaking again. would make infils definitely more strategized.
Wow. You missed the point. Regardless of if that IS reasonable (on which I may have an opinion), the discussion is about how to change SU to make it more enjoyable, not nerf MACE. Anyways.
We've seen all the permutations of the argument, and we've seen all the permutations of SU's loadout. I've played SU through all of them. The reason why Cloak + Cswep failed (SU actually died) *could* be attributed to CO failure, but that'd violate the entire pedantic argument about "strong class = high activity" and we can't have that.
Regardless, it didn't work before, and saying "just do that again" ignores both any effort put into the current system, and all the prior failings.
The current edition of SU's loadout focuses on In-Character expectations between each side, which both sides' high command are pursuing; setting boundaries for interaction where SUs don't get immediately shot as long as they don't focus on immediately gunning the other side down. Here's the sticker though, SU as it is right now is NOT designed for people whose primary enjoyment comes from gunning down the other team. If you didn't read the announcements, they quite clearly say "SU is now an RP-focused class". If you join SU with any other expectations, you're going to be disappointed.
That all said, there are some good points in here. Dice rolls suck, for one, even though there aren't a *ton* of alternatives to them. I've previously suggested making the outcome dependent on other factors, like hacking terminals or stealing from the weapons locker to make some degree of prep-work and/or teamwork valuable. Something like +15% chance of success per Terminal hacked, ect.
The Compare and Contrast between Cloak and the Disguise Kit's sustainability, especially where it relates to Vehicles, has always been a sucker's bet. People used to make the argument "DK = Combat, Cloak = Infils" but with the class's shift towards RP that is simply antithetical. The easiest partial solution I have to this is creating a method for an SU to change their disguise and wipe their Malignant status on the field. As-is, once you're called out or fail a check, you're done and cannot continue to be an infiltrator, regardless of what you've done previously. I'd also suggest re-adding cswep to SU because the increased mobility helps navigate infiltration routes without being exposed to a sightline.
Also to note, OVA will demote their members for leaving a vehicle unattended, and have rules against going AFK or leaving the server while a vehicle is deployed. Not only is it standard practice to do things that make stealing vehicles nearly impossible (hovering/"softlocking"), players are punished for acting any other way. It's not unreasonable, but it's far easier to defend against an SU compared to a MACE.
The post addressed mace VS su's infil and constantly compared them.
I adrresed his main point in like 2/3 of his grievances stating that mace outperforms SU in every
My suggestion was a solution to that. However moving past that, I think you do make some reasonable points. SU being an RP focused class is what it's advertised as however it doesn't
just effect SU. It effects the balance of both sides. Instead of constantly being paranoid of an SU being behind me, combine just dont have to care. I can count on
one hand the amount of times I've been killed by a disguised combine. However mace is just as annoying as before. I think an RP push is fine, however its possibly effecting things & messing with balance in general. Each side only has 1 infiltration class, & for rebels to be trash is kinda inbalancing the sides even more than they already are. If your gonna push for SU to be RP based, then mace also needs something that doesnt just make them a cloak shoot class.
[/quote]
Mace: Get perms ---> Cloak ---> Enter base ---> Find objective ---> Position yourself for sabotage/cap saving/assassination ---> Complete objective ---> Cloak ---> Escape
SU: Get perms ---> Disguise (probably as sentry) ---> Enter base ---> Get seen entering base ---> Entire disguise is ruined as you're forced into a diceroll ---> Redeem your free metashield for winning ---> Find your objective ---> Fucking cope as your asssassination/sabotage/steal target avoids you, or as NPU just continue spamming /me checks id until you lose a roll ---> Somehow magically complete your objective against all odds ---> Be shot and killed 98% of the time with little chance for escape (N/A if a steal is somehow successful)
[/quote]
Quote:It effects the balance of both sides. Instead of constantly being paranoid of an SU being behind me, combine just dont have to care. I can count on
one hand the amount of times I've been killed by a disguised combine.
I waited for this to be said. SU feels like a non-issue. MACE is a threat, SU is a chore.
I don't feel like this point would be strengthened by a ton of elaboration, but it just shows in gameplay
Quote:And about being disappointed if you joined for something other than RP, I could run a poll with a bunch of members of SU, but I feel like its fairly obvious to assume that most people didn't join "because I like the RP interactions SU can have". Most joined because SU serves a unique role in infiltration, or because the disguise kit is a cool part of their kit, or because stealing vehicles right from the combines grasp is incredibly fun, not to sit in front of a sentry going back n forth about why you arent an SU
The perfect example naturally showed up
Quote:I really joined SU because I like the impact of working behind enemy lines by saving captives, stealing and sabotaging the enemy, if I wanted to truly RP, I would have gone to CWU or an anarchist faction
Quote:Like, SU kit revolves DK, but what fun comes from a tool that has limited uses and tons of IC and OOC rules?
You are right that things seem same-y. I have no counter-point to you saying it just seems like beating a dead horse, where change is constantly promised, but seemingly none delivered.
But I can tell you in good faith, this time is different. You can ask people in overlook or rebel leadership about the shift in mindsets over the last 4 months or so.
I am so confident in this fact, that I will give you an actual estimate for when you start to see it occur. Within the month of December, you will start to see changes take place in the combine faction
SU is a problem. Thread over. +1s and cheering everywhere.
But why?
Mainly, Lack of enjoyable interaction for either party
I don't feel like a long, organized rant, so I'm going to rapid fire my grievances.
-SU infils are decided by a diceroll, its not easy to get in without being seen, and the entire idea of the disguise is that it allows you to sneak by people, but someone walking towards base is a immediate red alert to id check them. If you lose, infil over, you're dead, which feels unfair. If you win, the person who checked you now knows you're an SU, but cant do anything about it, which feels unfair.
-MACE is a basically unrestricted class that easily outperforms in the field. They have greater mobility, can cloak and decloak at any time (aside from low pop), and don't require any coordination to immediately gun people down or use downright unfair weapon switch binds to quickly dispatch targets.
SU have to tread on a minefield, constantly afraid of an instant CK for run n gunning, forced to coordinated in a gamemode where all coordination and planning is basically ignored. Even if you get the perfect setup, you're prone to just being id checked and immediately killed, forcing you to rethink your plan, where an unlucky MACE could just... go back to the fight immediately.
-Completing objectives while disguised just sucks. OVA will constantly hover around if any unit glances at their precious vehicles once, and you're highly encouraged to disguise as SENTRY. But why? NPU having cl4 clearance gives them an excuse to enter 90% of objective locations (only outlier being overlook office, which they can just BS that they saw a union or something run in), and that SENTRY has easily the best gun for wiping out targets with ease. Why pick any other class when you can just wm1 into npu cells and save your cap immediately?
"Softlocking" is the term used when an OVA just sits there and does nothing to avoid being hijacked. Obviously, they shouldn't be forced to willingly get hijacked, but its so easy to avoid it that the only way to be hijacked is to be intentionally ignorant or be unlucky with who you let into your transport. Another thing is that gunships only have 1 seat, meaning you basically can't steal them, even though you're allowed to for balancing reasons. The only way to is to RP with the FOXTROT, who most likely gun you down if they didn't already for getting within 20m of their precious baby.
-NCO perms. A dreaded issue across both infil classes is that doing literally anything requires an NCO to grant you. To be blunt, this fucking sucks. Many objectives, like assassinations, cap saving, and vehicle sabotage/stealing are TIME SENSITIVE. You do not have the time to wait for SGT Shitnuts to not be busy and finally grant you. It can take upwards of 5-10 minutes and 2-3 requests before someone finally grants you. NCOs arent even the biggest issue, most people ditch their grant binds by the time they reach CO, I guess under the assumption they dont have to grant infil requests anymore. While there are many good people who will look out for these classes which require their permission to have fun, many people will just kinda... ignore it.
Obviously letting fresh SU/MACE infil willy nilly is a bad idea, but requiring NCO perms for every objective change is just awful, even for the NCO who has to constantly type granted on every single change your infiltration requires.
Whats the solution? There isn't one.
If there was, it would be discussed in the suggestions section. But there really is no greater solution that comes to mind than literally reverting SU back to the cloak and cswep combo. Decreasing disguise restrictions would only turn SU into a menace again, and bring back the "neither side has fun" argument that is the crux of this issue already. Increasing RP requirements would only make it even less for combine having to deal with 4 layers of metashields protecting an SU from being outed and killed.
Random infil comparison
Mace: Get perms ---> Cloak ---> Enter base ---> Find objective ---> Position yourself for sabotage/cap saving/assassination ---> Complete objective ---> Cloak ---> Escape
SU: Get perms ---> Disguise (probably as sentry) ---> Enter base ---> Get seen entering base ---> Entire disguise is ruined as you're forced into a diceroll ---> Redeem your free metashield for winning ---> Find your objective ---> Fucking cope as your asssassination/sabotage/steal target avoids you, or as NPU just continue spamming /me checks id until you lose a roll ---> Somehow magically complete your objective against all odds ---> Be shot and killed 98% of the time with little chance for escape (N/A if a steal is somehow successful)
Obviously, I'm probably biased. MACE have issues with MACE checking and door bodyblocks all the time, but SU is in a state that many find very boring, having to constantly worry about whether or not you just committed a ck'able offense by run n gunning, combine complain about the RP rules all the time, and infilling is just a worse experience overall. I think I had more things to rant about, But I'm done for now.
Wow. You missed the point. Regardless of if that IS reasonable (on which I may have an opinion), the discussion is about how to change SU to make it more enjoyable, not nerf MACE. Anyways.
We've seen all the permutations of the argument, and we've seen all the permutations of SU's loadout. I've played SU through all of them. The reason why Cloak + Cswep failed (SU actually died) *could* be attributed to CO failure, but that'd violate the entire pedantic argument about "strong class = high activity" and we can't have that.
Regardless, it didn't work before, and saying "just do that again" ignores both any effort put into the current system, and all the prior failings.
The current edition of SU's loadout focuses on In-Character expectations between each side, which both sides' high command are pursuing; setting boundaries for interaction where SUs don't get immediately shot as long as they don't focus on immediately gunning the other side down. Here's the sticker though, SU as it is right now is NOT designed for people whose primary enjoyment comes from gunning down the other team. If you didn't read the announcements, they quite clearly say "SU is now an RP-focused class". If you join SU with any other expectations, you're going to be disappointed.
That all said, there are some good points in here. Dice rolls suck, for one, even though there aren't a *ton* of alternatives to them. I've previously suggested making the outcome dependent on other factors, like hacking terminals or stealing from the weapons locker to make some degree of prep-work and/or teamwork valuable. Something like +15% chance of success per Terminal hacked, ect.
The Compare and Contrast between Cloak and the Disguise Kit's sustainability, especially where it relates to Vehicles, has always been a sucker's bet. People used to make the argument "DK = Combat, Cloak = Infils" but with the class's shift towards RP that is simply antithetical. The easiest partial solution I have to this is creating a method for an SU to change their disguise and wipe their Malignant status on the field. As-is, once you're called out or fail a check, you're done and cannot continue to be an infiltrator, regardless of what you've done previously. I'd also suggest re-adding cswep to SU because the increased mobility helps navigate infiltration routes without being exposed to a sightline.
Also to note, OVA will demote their members for leaving a vehicle unattended, and have rules against going AFK or leaving the server while a vehicle is deployed. Not only is it standard practice to do things that make stealing vehicles nearly impossible (hovering/"softlocking"), players are punished for acting any other way. It's not unreasonable, but it's far easier to defend against an SU compared to a MACE.
Ancient GRID CmD, prior SU Major/GB COL.
Credit to SEVIN.
I feel like for most CvR players, forced RP is the vegetables on the theoretical TDM dinner plate. The more you try to shove RP down the combines throat, the more they resist it. I can see how this is an attempt to "change the direction of how SU is interact and be interacted with" but as it stands, pretty much everyone I've seen doesn't like dealing with SURP. They don't like not being able to use their common sense and being forced into probing the SU until they find an excuse to murder them.
This gamemode also isnt a great place for mostly RP roles. CWU is not a very popular class, Anarchist isnt a very popular class, etc. While having more focus on RP can be fine, literally stripping your ability to have an effect on the field and do something during times where such RP scenarios are unavailable has ruined the enjoyment perceived from playing a class. Not a lot of people play anarchist outside of factions after they took away their gun. Removing any and all ability to use the disguise kit unless for rare, undefined coordinated scenarios has stripped SU of its ability to "passively" play on the field without necessarily always engaging in their specific role.
While it can easily be said the solution is to play your other character or other side, this is a pretty universally weak argument that cannot apply to some people and scenarios. The MACE cloak has this solved by the fact it easily serves as a useful tool in the field and in their infiltrations, while SU can only find much use out of infiltrations.
And yes, coordination is possible, dooming on cvr players and saying they cant plan anything is also a weak argument, but at the same time, you're still treading a thin line of what is and is not run and gun. I even receive warnings to not do coordinated disguise efforts too often, because then people will just complain its a run and gun scenario.
Re-adding cswep alone for its ability to find ways around and into base without necessarily requiring a sightline is a good idea, and means I wouldn't have to run haste paratrooper floaty all the time to get around to the more hard to access parts of bases, like the rooftops (Which extends into the issue of people wondering why [x] class is running so fast and using it as an excuse to probe you until they can shoot you)
"Regardless, it didn't work before, and saying "just do that again" ignores both any effort put into the current system, and all the prior failings." This is the sad truth to the situation, and there is genuinely nothing to say against it. I didn't know SU actually died, just noticed a severe lack of SU activity at the time.
I do feel like, however, that in the current state of the server, there is little place for a class solely based on RP, and should serve as a niche class (such as CWU) rather than one of the more important classes (in my opinion) when it comes to gameplay.
Edited:
Aditionally, this results in SU feeling much more "restrictive" your actions and freedom in what can be done is limited, and therefore less enjoyable, which is probably why SU and MACE are often compared, even in my own arguments. MACE generally just has the freedom to do more things, which makes it seem much more enjoyable.
And about being disappointed if you joined for something other than RP, I could run a poll with a bunch of members of SU, but I feel like its fairly obvious to assume that most people didn't join "because I like the RP interactions SU can have". Most joined because SU serves a unique role in infiltration, or because the disguise kit is a cool part of their kit, or because stealing vehicles right from the combines grasp is incredibly fun, not to sit in front of a sentry going back n forth about why you arent an SU
You are correct. However, the server has been slowly changing, and will continue to do so.
Something to note, is that I make changes in advance of when they're actually relevant. SU's rules may not be the best now, but it's a single puzzle piece of a much larger picture.
I feel like this has been said for over a year now, but I'm really not feeling it. There's this insistence that what's being done is for the "grander scheme" of the server and that I just have to wait, but nothing really comes up. Its been a year, and I come back to see GRID is doing just as bad as it did previously, completely missing an entire category of members, with promises from high comm that it "will eventually get better" and "will eventually be fixed", and that "building classes will soon serve a more important purpose on the field". And while I know you aren't behind the management of factions and divisions and dont make the choices regarding them, it feels like a similar situation where nothing really feels like its changing aside from a couple things becoming worse.
I'm not really seeing how these plans are coming into fruition, especially when they're slowly released in this way, which is making a class actively unenjoyable to play as and against, when it would be more convenient to release a set of said large shifts at a time, to prevent said classes from becoming stale and boring from the place you've suddenly thrust them into.
And even if this is a part of a series of changes to the server, whats next? Mace have no cloak and have to pretend to be invisible while people "/me checks for invisible people" and roll until they find them? I don't see how this is going to line up and it doesn't really give me faith in the future of the server if "It'll eventually come together" is constantly repeated like a broken record.
The post addressed mace VS su's infil and constantly compared them.
I adrresed his main point in like 2/3 of his grievances stating that mace outperforms SU in every
My suggestion was a solution to that. However moving past that, I think you do make some reasonable points. SU being an RP focused class is what it's advertised as however it doesn't
just effect SU. It effects the balance of both sides. Instead of constantly being paranoid of an SU being behind me, combine just dont have to care. I can count on
one hand the amount of times I've been killed by a disguised combine. However mace is just as annoying as before. I think an RP push is fine, however its possibly effecting things & messing with balance in general. Each side only has 1 infiltration class, & for rebels to be trash is kinda inbalancing the sides even more than they already are. If your gonna push for SU to be RP based, then mace also needs something that doesnt just make them a cloak shoot class.
[/quote]
Mace: Get perms ---> Cloak ---> Enter base ---> Find objective ---> Position yourself for sabotage/cap saving/assassination ---> Complete objective ---> Cloak ---> Escape
SU: Get perms ---> Disguise (probably as sentry) ---> Enter base ---> Get seen entering base ---> Entire disguise is ruined as you're forced into a diceroll ---> Redeem your free metashield for winning ---> Find your objective ---> Fucking cope as your asssassination/sabotage/steal target avoids you, or as NPU just continue spamming /me checks id until you lose a roll ---> Somehow magically complete your objective against all odds ---> Be shot and killed 98% of the time with little chance for escape (N/A if a steal is somehow successful)
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I waited for this to be said. SU feels like a non-issue. MACE is a threat, SU is a chore.
I don't feel like this point would be strengthened by a ton of elaboration, but it just shows in gameplay
The perfect example naturally showed up
-SGM Afton
But I can tell you in good faith, this time is different. You can ask people in overlook or rebel leadership about the shift in mindsets over the last 4 months or so.
I am so confident in this fact, that I will give you an actual estimate for when you start to see it occur. Within the month of December, you will start to see changes take place in the combine faction